From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#16292: 24.3.50; info docs now contain single straight quotes instead of `' Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:27:54 +0200 Message-ID: <8338l91l2t.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20131229220810.GF7972@boo.workgroup> <52C0E734.4090403@cs.ucla.edu> <83sita1cbw.fsf@gnu.org> <52C1C456.2080004@cs.ucla.edu> <83fvpa16kh.fsf@gnu.org> <52C25D07.80808@cs.ucla.edu> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1388478554 29923 80.91.229.3 (31 Dec 2013 08:29:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:29:14 +0000 (UTC) Cc: grfz@gmx.de, 16292@debbugs.gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 31 09:29:19 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VxuhQ-00032N-Tx for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2013 09:29:17 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:32842 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VxuhQ-0003vs-HG for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2013 03:29:16 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58890) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VxuhJ-0003lx-50 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2013 03:29:13 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VxuhD-0005er-3H for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2013 03:29:09 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:39933) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VxuhD-0005en-03 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2013 03:29:03 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VxuhC-0005au-CD for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2013 03:29:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:29:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16292 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 16292-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16292.138847851821463 (code B ref 16292); Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:29:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 16292) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Dec 2013 08:28:38 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53952 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vxugn-0005a5-43 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2013 03:28:37 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:55533) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vxugj-0005Zo-Fs for 16292@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2013 03:28:34 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MYN00500WTYIX00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 16292@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:28:02 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MYN0055TWUQIP10@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:28:02 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <52C25D07.80808@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:82778 Archived-At: > Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 21:58:31 -0800 > From: Paul Eggert > CC: 16292@debbugs.gnu.org, grfz@gmx.de > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > (names of people) so using Latin-1 doesn't hamper users' > > ability to read the manual in any way > > Most of the non-ASCII words are people's names, but many are not, > and often ASCIIfying these would hurt the manual. > These include symbols (e.g., "¬"), examples of encoding > ("@samp{Naïve} is encoded as @samp{=?iso-8859-1?q?Na=EFve?=}"), > calendars ("Bahá'í"), the names of GNU programs ("真 Gnus"), > and configuration examples ("écrit" in email configuration). I don't think we care about encoding of a handful of words, as long as the bulk of the manual, including markup and quotes, is legible. I only mentioned Latin-1 because it seemed to cover most of the non-ASCII characters. But I don't insist on it. Neither do I insist on a single-byte encoding of those few words and names; in particular, UTF-8 will do -- but only for the non-ASCII text in the manuals. > Nowadays, on GNUish and POSIXish systems in the Emacs target > audience, there's more usage of UTF-8 than of Latin-1. On > Ubuntu and Fedora, for example, the default locale for US > English is en_US.utf8. Hence, converting info files to > Latin-1 would hurt standalone info users in the typical > setup on GNUish and POSIXish platforms. It hurts them in a very small number of places, most or all of which don't affect in any way the ability of the reader to read and understand the presented material. As I say above, I won't object to having the non-ASCII words encoded in UTF-8, as long as it doesn't affect the (single and double) quote characters, and any other characters/strings (like '#' and '=>') we use for describing the Emacs and Lisp features. The problem here is that @documentencoding is virulent when you use UTF-8: it affects the quotes, not just non-ASCII text in the Texinfo sources. This is unlike any other value of @documentencoding. And that is the only problem that bothers me, and IMO should bother us all. Perhaps a possible solution would be to customize OPEN_QUOTE_SYMBOL and CLOSE_QUOTE_SYMBOL (although I'm not sure it affects double quotes), or edit the Info files with Sed to replace Unicode quote characters with some ASCII characters. The rest of the non-ASCII text can be left intact, in UTF-8. > Perhaps Microsoft Windows users are different, and typically > use Latin-1 or some other unibyte encoding. This has nothing to do with Windows; I first hit the problem on a GNU/Linux machine that was configured with a non-UTF locale. The reason I never saw the problem since last March is that I still use makeinfo from Texinfo 4.13, which doesn't affect the quote characters when @documentencoding of UTF-8 is specified. So the Info files I produce when I build Emacs don't suffer from this misfeature.