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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>,
	Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: grfz@gmx.de, 16292@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#16292: 24.3.50; info docs now contain single straight quotes instead of `'
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 17:51:51 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <83zjnextyg.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <52C4F008.5060003@cs.ucla.edu>

> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 20:50:16 -0800
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> CC: 16292@debbugs.gnu.org, grfz@gmx.de
> 
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Thanks, but this should be the default, or at least should be used
> > when producing the release tarball.
> 
> No, the point is that the release tarball contains UTF-8
> info files, and that these are transformed to ASCII for installations
> that prefer ASCII info files.

But does "make install" really cut that?  How many end users on a
typical Posix platform will build and install their own Emacs?  I
thought the majority installs from ready-to-run packages nowadays, and
in that case "make install" was already run by someone else, with who
knows what configure-time options.

> cp-ascii's UTF8-to-ASCII transformation loses information; we can't
> ship ASCII info files in the tarball and then transform those to the
> UTF-8 originals.

That's because your Sed script goes too far, IMO: it can be limited to
editing only the markup and the => arrows, and leave the other
non-ASCII characters intact.  Then there will be no information loss,
just a different (some will say less pretty) display of that
information.

> An ASCII default would have been better years ago, but these days
> UTF-8 is the typical default encoding in GNUish distributions and
> most users will be better off if UTF-8 is the default.

I agree, when it comes to non-ASCII text.  But I see no reason for
such a strong preference when it comes to the Info markup.  I find
that a purely aesthetic consideration with no real functionality
behind it.  (It can even hurt: e.g., on one of my machines, the
Unicode quotes look pale and not so pretty at all, I guess the font
I'm using is not the best one for those characters.)

To summarize, I see the following possible ways to solve this issue:

  1) Do nothing.  This is a temporary measure at best and doesn't make
     much sense; I mention it here only for completeness.  Sooner or
     later we will have to do something.

  2) Use "@documentencoding ISO-8859-1" in any manual that needs to
     include non-ASCII characters.  This is what we did a year ago,
     although a couple of manuals had utf-8 in them; they can all be
     converted to use Latin-1.  The advantage is that this leaves the
     markup intact; the disadvantage is that most locales will not
     display the non-ASCII text correctly these days.

  3) Install Paul's script, which will be run at "make install" time,
     either by default, or given a configure time option.  (We could
     also make this  "make install" time option.)  If we go this way,
     I think we should leave Unicode characters that are not Info
     markup alone, and not edit them.

  4) Use --disable-encoding switch to makeinfo, again either by
     default or given some non-default option.  This avoids the need
     for a separate Sed script, but has a complication: makeinfo 4.13,
     which I presume is still in use and which we want to support, did
     not emit the 'coding' cookie when --disable-encoding was
     specified.  OTOH, makeinfo 4.13 didn't emit Unicode quotes when
     --enable-encoding was specified.  So if we go this way, we will
     need to detect the makeinfo version and use the right switch.

  5) Add a feature to info.el that will set up a display table for
     Info buffers, and use that display table to display quotes and
     arrows on TTYs that don't support UTF-8.  Then Paul's changes to
     use "@documentencoding utf-8" everywhere can be re-installed with
     no additional changes.  However, unlike all the other
     alternatives, this one solves the problem only for the Emacs Info
     reader, and leaves the problem with the stand-alone Info reader
     to the Texinfo maintainers.

If someone has other suggestions, please raise them.  Otherwise, I
guess it's decision time.





  reply	other threads:[~2014-01-02 15:51 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 104+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2013-12-29 22:08 bug#16292: 24.3.50; info docs now contain single straight quotes instead of `' Gregor Zattler
2013-12-30  1:14 ` Glenn Morris
2013-12-30  3:07   ` Drew Adams
2013-12-30  3:26     ` Glenn Morris
2013-12-30  3:23 ` Paul Eggert
2013-12-30  4:10   ` Drew Adams
2013-12-30 17:24   ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-30 17:33     ` Drew Adams
2013-12-30 18:03       ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-30 19:07     ` Paul Eggert
2013-12-30 19:29       ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-30 19:46         ` Andreas Schwab
2013-12-30 20:08           ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-30 20:35             ` Andreas Schwab
2013-12-31  8:03               ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-31  5:51           ` Paul Eggert
2013-12-31  5:58         ` Paul Eggert
2013-12-31  8:27           ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-02  2:05             ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-02  3:42               ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-02  4:50                 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-02 15:51                   ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2014-01-02 19:28                     ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-02 20:56                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03  0:44                         ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-03  8:03                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 17:26                             ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-03 20:18                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 20:48                                 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-03 21:12                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 21:52                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-04  0:07                                   ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-04  0:40                                     ` Drew Adams
2014-01-04  0:49                                       ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-04  7:27                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04  5:18                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-04  7:45                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                         ` <<jwvtxdjlcdq.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>
2014-01-04 18:01                                         ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-04 20:11                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                           ` <<83mwjbv75f.fsf@gnu.org>
2014-01-04 20:24                                             ` Drew Adams
2014-01-04 20:42                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 20:30                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-04 20:45                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                             ` <<jwv38l3lagj.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>
2014-01-04 20:53                                             ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-04 21:08                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 23:29                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-05  3:47                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-05  5:23                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-05 16:30                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 21:11                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-05  3:43                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                                 ` <<jwvsit3owo1.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>
2014-01-05  4:55                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-05 16:19                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                                     ` <<52C9BA68.7050703@cs.ucla.edu>
2014-01-05 20:02                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-05 20:06                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                                         ` <<52C9BCBF.7050904@cs.ucla.edu>
2014-01-05 20:12                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-05 20:19                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                                             ` <<52C9E53D.8070106@cs.ucla.edu>
2014-01-05 23:05                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-06  3:54                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                                                 ` <<52CA3FB9.30509@cs.ucla.edu>
2014-01-06  4:39                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-06  5:31                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-06 16:15                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-07  1:15                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-07  3:56                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                                                     ` <<52CB5517.4030502@cs.ucla.edu>
     [not found]                                                                       ` <<83lhyssawf.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                                                         ` <da0ad1dc-90f0-4c6d-9325-7783b2cd5bff@de>
2014-05-02 18:11                                                                         ` Drew Adams
2014-05-02 18:22                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-05-02 19:07                                                                           ` Paul Eggert
2014-05-02 19:19                                                                             ` Glenn Morris
2014-05-02 19:28                                                                               ` Paul Eggert
2014-05-02 21:10                                                                                 ` Glenn Morris
2014-05-02 21:25                                                                                   ` Paul Eggert
2014-05-02 19:33                                                                             ` Drew Adams
2014-05-02 20:36                                                                               ` Paul Eggert
2014-05-02 20:53                                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2014-05-02 21:14                                                                                   ` Paul Eggert
2014-05-02 21:28                                                                                     ` Drew Adams
2014-05-02 21:47                                                                                       ` Paul Eggert
2014-05-03  6:02                                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-05-03  6:56                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
     [not found]                                                                         ` <<da0ad1dc-90f0-4c6d-9325-7783b2cd5bff@default>
     [not found]                                                                           ` <<83eh0c11mt.fsf@gnu.org>
2014-05-02 19:20                                                                             ` Drew Adams
2014-05-03  9:27                                                                               ` Juri Linkov
2014-05-03 13:50                                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2014-05-03 15:51                                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2014-05-07 20:21                                                                                     ` Juri Linkov
2014-05-07 20:41                                                                                       ` Drew Adams
2014-01-04 17:50                                       ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-04 20:08                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 20:53                                           ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-04 21:10                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 23:35                                               ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-05  3:49                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 20:32                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-04  7:41                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04  7:38                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-02  4:19     ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-02  4:48       ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-02 15:28         ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-05-03  0:55 ` Glenn Morris
     [not found] <<20131229220810.GF7972@boo.workgroup>
     [not found] ` <<52C0E734.4090403@cs.ucla.edu>
     [not found]   ` <<83sita1cbw.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]     ` <<52C1C456.2080004@cs.ucla.edu>
     [not found]       ` <<83fvpa16kh.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]         ` <<52C25D07.80808@cs.ucla.edu>
     [not found]           ` <<8338l91l2t.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]             ` <<52C4C95C.2010905@cs.ucla.edu>
     [not found]               ` <<837gajyrq1.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                 ` <<52C4F008.5060003@cs.ucla.edu>
     [not found]                   ` <<83zjnextyg.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                     ` <<52C5BDD1.2050009@cs.ucla.edu>
     [not found]                       ` <<83ppoaxfu6.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                         ` <<52C607DA.3090009@cs.ucla.edu>
     [not found]                           ` <<83fvp5xzk0.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                             ` <<52C6F2C5.10505@cs.ucla.edu>
     [not found]                               ` <<83mwjcx1i9.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                 ` <<jwveh4ospsd.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                   ` <<52C750C4.6040006@cs.ucla.edu>
     [not found]                                     ` <<b62a40e1-c1d8-4e30-a04c-f7d311a915b3@default>
     [not found]                                       ` <<838uuww6j7.fsf@gnu.org>
2014-01-04 15:21                                         ` Drew Adams
     [not found]                                     ` <<"<8338l4w5pj.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                       ` <<7b8ccac4-1887-406c-bed8-6b58a761897a@default>
     [not found]                                         ` <<83iotzv5q0.fsf@gnu.org>
2014-01-04 21:07                                           ` Drew Adams
2014-01-04 23:05                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-04 23:45                                             ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-05  6:13                                               ` Drew Adams
2014-01-05  3:41                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <<"<20131229220810.GF7972"@boo.workgroup>
     [not found] ` <<"<83sita1cbw.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]   ` <<"<83fvpa16kh.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]     ` <<"<8338l91l2t.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]       ` <<"<837gajyrq1.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]         ` <<"<83zjnextyg.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]           ` <<"<83ppoaxfu6.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]             ` <<"<83fvp5xzk0.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found] <20131229220810.GF7972"@boo.workgroup>
     [not found] ` <83sita1cbw.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]   ` <83fvpa16kh.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]     ` <8338l91l2t.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]       ` <837gajyrq1.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]         ` <83zjnextyg.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]           ` <83ppoaxfu6.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]             ` <83fvp5xzk0.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found] <"<20131229220810.GF7972"@boo.workgroup>
     [not found] ` <"<83sita1cbw.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]   ` <"<83fvpa16kh.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]     ` <"<8338l91l2t.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]       ` <"<837gajyrq1.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]         ` <"<83zjnextyg.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]           ` <"<83ppoaxfu6.fsf"@gnu.org>
     [not found]             ` <"<83fvp5xzk0.fsf"@gnu.org>

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