Re: Windows Subsystem for Linux

Re: Windows Subsystem for Linux

[Blake Shaw]

Hi,
Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi,
>
> zimoun <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> skribis:
>
>> About FSDG, the arguments are exactly the same as GNU Emacs on
>> Windows. :-) No?  I mean, GNU Emacs provides a full port on Windows and
>> such port is available on the same side as other platforms on their
>> website [1].  The rationale [2]:
>>
>>         The purpose of the GNU system is to give users the freedom that
>>         proprietary software takes away from its users. Proprietary
>>         operating systems (like other proprietary programs) are an
>>         injustice, and we aim for a world in which they do not exist.
>>
>>         To improve the use of proprietary systems is a misguided
>>         goal. Our aim, rather, is to eliminate them. We include support
>>         for some proprietary systems in GNU Emacs in the hope that
>>         running Emacs on them will give users a taste of freedom and
>>         thus lead them to free themselves.
>>
>> would also make sense for GNU Guix, no?
>
> Just like the Emacs manual has an appendix on Windows support, I think
> the cookbook could have a section on setting up Guix on WSL2.
>
> Cc’ing maintainers for their thoughts!
>
> Thanks,
> Ludo’.
>

I just had a client inquire about deploying to WSL2, so it's great news
to hear that this is working!

Hopefully it will mean that as the Guix tentacles extend, the
obsolescence, redundance, inconvenience & expense of proprietary
"middleware" like Windows will become clear to users.

May Guix/Guile march forward on the path of ubiquitous extensionality! 

ez,
b

-- 
“In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni”

Re: Building a software toolchain that works

[david larsson]

On 2022-03-17 13:56, zimoun wrote:
> Hi Olivier,
> 
>> On another note, what I find fascinating is why Guix and Nix are not
>> more used in academic papers.
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> One part of the answer is, IMHO: it is difficult to spread the word.
> 
> For instance, with co-authors, we have tried to write a short paper
> detailing what Guix solves, i.e., the computational environment part of
> the “science crisis“, and targeting especially bioinfo folks.  We got
> many refusals by the journals that bioinfo folks indeed read and we end
> in a “specialized” journal.
> 
> On the top of that, add the fact that most of the time, people use what
> other people in their lab or collaborators already use.
> 
> On the top of that, add the fact that the story of Guix on Windows or
> Mac is not really good.  I am not arguing here, just to mention that
> many people are still using Windows or Mac and few one Linux variant.
> 
> Therefore, all in all, the bootstrap of Guix is hard; as always. :-)
> 
> The initiative Guix-HPC is an attempt to address that.  The name is
> probably not fully representative since now it looks like Guix in
> scientific context; HPC being only one component.
> 
> From my point of view, the bootstrap of Guix in scientific world
> requires more documentation materials for many common use cases and 
> more
> popular applications or usual scientific stack.  For instance PyTorch 
> in
> Guix is one step but many things are still really hard to do with Guix
> when it is not elsewhere.  Another instance is RStudio for bioinfo 
> folks
> – it does not work out of the box with Guix when it does elsewhere.
> 
> Help in these both areas – howto materials and popular applications – 
> is
> very welcome. :-)
> 
> Join the fun, join guix-science@gnu.org :-)
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> simon

I run Guix including GUI applications from Windows via WSL2 (Windows 
Subsystem for Linux). It may help some to try it out if this setup was 
easier and more documented, though I suppose that is somewhat prevented 
to go via official channels by the FSDG guidelines.

Best regards,
David

Windows Subsystem for Linux

[zimoun]

Hi,

> I run Guix including GUI applications from Windows via WSL2 (Windows 
> Subsystem for Linux). It may help some to try it out if this setup was 
> easier and more documented, though I suppose that is somewhat prevented 
> to go via official channels by the FSDG guidelines.

Cool!  I knew that Guix via WSL2 was possible but I was not aware that
it just works for a daily usage. :-)

Yeah, document it via one Cookbook recipe would be great, IMHO.


About FSDG, the arguments are exactly the same as GNU Emacs on
Windows. :-) No?  I mean, GNU Emacs provides a full port on Windows and
such port is available on the same side as other platforms on their
website [1].  The rationale [2]:

        The purpose of the GNU system is to give users the freedom that
        proprietary software takes away from its users. Proprietary
        operating systems (like other proprietary programs) are an
        injustice, and we aim for a world in which they do not exist.

        To improve the use of proprietary systems is a misguided
        goal. Our aim, rather, is to eliminate them. We include support
        for some proprietary systems in GNU Emacs in the hope that
        running Emacs on them will give users a taste of freedom and
        thus lead them to free themselves.

would also make sense for GNU Guix, no?


1: <https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/>
2: <https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/download.html#nonfree>

Cheers,
simon


(Parenthesis, if we are picky or finicky, Guix on Windows would be about
the package manager and not the distribution, thus FSDG would not apply
here, right? ;-) Closing parenthesis.)

Re: Windows Subsystem for Linux

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi,

zimoun <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> skribis:

> About FSDG, the arguments are exactly the same as GNU Emacs on
> Windows. :-) No?  I mean, GNU Emacs provides a full port on Windows and
> such port is available on the same side as other platforms on their
> website [1].  The rationale [2]:
>
>         The purpose of the GNU system is to give users the freedom that
>         proprietary software takes away from its users. Proprietary
>         operating systems (like other proprietary programs) are an
>         injustice, and we aim for a world in which they do not exist.
>
>         To improve the use of proprietary systems is a misguided
>         goal. Our aim, rather, is to eliminate them. We include support
>         for some proprietary systems in GNU Emacs in the hope that
>         running Emacs on them will give users a taste of freedom and
>         thus lead them to free themselves.
>
> would also make sense for GNU Guix, no?

Just like the Emacs manual has an appendix on Windows support, I think
the cookbook could have a section on setting up Guix on WSL2.

Cc’ing maintainers for their thoughts!

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: Windows Subsystem for Linux

[Maxim Cournoyer]

Hello,

Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi,
>
> zimoun <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> skribis:
>
>> About FSDG, the arguments are exactly the same as GNU Emacs on
>> Windows. :-) No?  I mean, GNU Emacs provides a full port on Windows and
>> such port is available on the same side as other platforms on their
>> website [1].  The rationale [2]:
>>
>>         The purpose of the GNU system is to give users the freedom that
>>         proprietary software takes away from its users. Proprietary
>>         operating systems (like other proprietary programs) are an
>>         injustice, and we aim for a world in which they do not exist.
>>
>>         To improve the use of proprietary systems is a misguided
>>         goal. Our aim, rather, is to eliminate them. We include support
>>         for some proprietary systems in GNU Emacs in the hope that
>>         running Emacs on them will give users a taste of freedom and
>>         thus lead them to free themselves.
>>
>> would also make sense for GNU Guix, no?
>
> Just like the Emacs manual has an appendix on Windows support, I think
> the cookbook could have a section on setting up Guix on WSL2.
>
> Cc’ing maintainers for their thoughts!

I think if it's worded correctly (e.g., by hinting that WSL2 is an
inferior means of running Guix than via Guix System or one of the others
GNU/Linux distributions), it can be a fine and useful addition to the
cookbook.  I have fellow coworkers (not at Savoir-faire Linux, mind you
:-)) who have yet to escape their Windows jail; giving them a taste of
what is possible out there with Guix would probably be a real eye
opener.  At the minimum it would present Guix as a technically viable
alternative to Docker & friends in these circles.

Thanks,

Maxim

Re: Windows Subsystem for Linux

[Phil]

Maxim Cournoyer writes:

> cookbook.  I have fellow coworkers (not at Savoir-faire Linux, mind you
> :-)) who have yet to escape their Windows jail; giving them a taste of
> what is possible out there with Guix would probably be a real eye
> opener.  At the minimum it would present Guix as a technically viable
> alternative to Docker & friends in these circles.
>

I totally agree with this - at the moment setting on WSL2 (AFAIK) you
have 2 options:

1. Run it on-top of Ubuntu and tweak the various daemons to start on
image boot.

2. Use Busybox to bootstrap a bare-metal install of Guix without a host
Linux.


The main problem I've had with 1 is that the resulting image is produced
is very large and does not reliably install on colleague's machines.
That and Ubuntu of course is just a distraction when trying to showcase
a Guix workflow.

The problem with 2 is that last time I tried (about a year ago), this
requires you to construct your Guix image for scratch - which is an
interesting exercise but will put off the majority of users:
https://gist.github.com/giuliano108/49ec5bd0a9339db98535bc793ceb5ab4

What we need is a WSL2 image like other OSs provided which can just be
import directly into WSL2 in a push-button fashion.  I don't think
this would be particularly difficult to do, and would encourage more
people to try Guix.

It would also be useful for people who already use Guix, but have no
option but to use Windows in some circumstances - WSL2 is already very
popular to escape Windows into Linux in day-to-day workflows, when you
are unable to have a Linux desktop, and has become widely adopted even in
companies that have a Windows-only desktop policy.

Having Guix images to download and install for WSL2 would make it very
easy to showcase Guix without asking people to risk a physical
install (which can be tricky to get hardware working), or even to adopt the
full Graphical Desktop. Users don't need admin rights to install a WSL2
image, and assuming WSL2 is already enabled (for Ubuntu or whatever) it
is trivial to add any other image.  It would be nice complement to the QCOW images
already available for QEMU.

Getting ahead of myself :-) I also think providing cloud images in
formats like Amazon's AMI would encourage people to spin-up Guix and
give it whirl.  And even looking at Ubuntu's "multipass" to easily bring
Ubuntu to Windows/Mac/Linux is another way to make it easy to try Ubuntu
on any other OS with a lightweight install.

Re: Windows Subsystem for Linux

[Oliver Propst]

Yeah I very much agree about that it could be good idea idea to have the 
Guix system available as a Wsl 2 image
as I think could serve as a good gateway to many people to learn more 
about Guix and maybe free and open source software in general for that 
matter.


Kinds regards Oliver Propst
https://twitter.com/Opropst