From: Maxime Devos <maximedevos@telenet.be>
To: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@ist.tugraz.at>,
raid5atemyhomework <raid5atemyhomework@protonmail.com>
Cc: "45692@debbugs.gnu.org" <45692@debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: [bug#45692] [PATCH 0/3] Better Support for ZFS on Guix
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 18:22:04 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <1e72240bff6b2c5986cc26a3af5fe9517ad4db74.camel@telenet.be> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <bcf409dac9f3d33f6cac37a7b5b4e098118b3b38.camel@ist.tugraz.at>
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Liliana Marie Prikler schreef op do 17-03-2022 om 09:24 [+0100]:
> In any case, I've added Maxime to CC so they can have a closer look at
> it.
I have been more-or-less ignoring the ZFS patches since some time after
<https://issues.guix.gnu.org/45692#44>. If ZFS people(^), after a
disagreement about licensing concerns, directly jump to accusations of
gaslighting and sabogate, completely ignoring my previous arguments (*)
without trying to refute any of them or bringing new arguments, then I
don't want to be involved with ZFS.
(^) So far only Mason Loring Bliss, _not_ raid5atemyhomework!
Also, the various ‘work-arounds’ around the GPL<->CDLL incompatibility
still seem super fishy to me even if they _might_ be technically
correct. To me, this makes reviewing the code practically pointless --
why review the zfs service patches if they will have to be reverted
due to incompatibility concerns anyway? Summarised:
* The ‘Oracle does not care so no legal risk’ argument:
- Oracle might not care, but there are other parties involved as
well (e.g. the Linux people and contributors to OpenZFS).
- Not getting caught doesn't mean things are above board. It just
means you haven't got caught, and you might get caught later.
- Has anyone actually ever asked Oracle for some official ‘yes,
go ahead’ / ‘no, here's a DMCA notice / see you at YYYY-MM-DD
in court’ / ‘no, but you're too small fry to bother so you'll
get away for it ... for now’ response?
AFAICT, this has not been done.
- Even if it would be very strange for Oracle to try to stop (the
Linux part of(*)) OpenZFS, why would that stop Oracle and how
would the odd behaviour actually legally matter?
* The ‘zfs package is already in Guix’ argument
(https://issues.guix.gnu.org/45692#47): then it should be
reverted when the incompatibility is discovered.
Also, the incompatibility issue has been noted before:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2019-04/msg00404.html
though it appears to have been forgotten in
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-patches/2019-12/msg00543.html
presumably because different people were involved?
* The ‘Guix is not distributing the source code, it's only pointing
to the source code’ argument:
- We do distribute the source code, at https://ci.guix.gnu.org
- probably also via our friends at SWH
- and via the Wayback Machine fallback
- possibly also to any Guix users on the local network, when using
'--advertise' and '--discover'
- and by delegating the distributing to the OpenZFS project
- even if pointing to the tarball OpenZFS web would not count as
distribution, assuming there's a license incompatibility (and
hence, the Linux part of OpenZFS is illegal (*), wouldn't this
pointing count as facilitation of a crime (or misdemeanor or
contract breach or whatever's the local terminology), wouldn't
this make Guix or individuals behind Guix accomplishes?
- even if it's all legal, what about freedom 3 -- the freedom
to distribute the program?
- also, not being able to distribute the source code by ourselves
seems rather inconvenient
* The ‘we're not doing binary distribution’ argument:
- That seems rather inconvenient, why not use BTRFS instead which
seems quite capable and doesn't have this weird restriction?
- Freedom 3 is:
‘The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help others
(freedom 2).’ Guix redistributes copies is a convenient form,
to help all users (‘others’). To help the users, it not only
redistributes in source form, but also in binary form
(substitutes). But the CDDL+GPL combination stops us from
helping others by redistributing binary copies!
Basically, if there's the freedom to redistribute copies,
shouldn't this include _binary_ copies, especially when
binaries are convenient?
- We _are_ doing binary distribution:
(here, ‘we’ includes all relevant users of Guix)
An uninitiated user might do "guix system image ..." to
produce an image (that happens to include a binary ZFS),
dutifully uses "guix build --sources=transitive" and share
the sources+binary with other people, and accidentally commit
a violation.
All the initrd, system image and "guix pack" would need to
propagate unsubstitutability (and the top-level tools might need
to error out) and this needs to be tested, AFAIK this has not
been done.
* The ‘we're not distributing _modified_ source code’ argument:
Freedom 4! We should be able to (legally) distribute modified
source code as well.
* Various ’technically, because of Section 1 (bis) alpha Z of this
license, Paragraph 2 beta 3 of that license, this and that clause
do not apply’ arguments:
This seems to be missing the spirit, and the law is, to my limited
knowledge, not a deterministic automaton with an exact mathematical
formulation without any bit flips.
Greetings,
Maxime.
(*) The BSD modules are presumably fine though (unverified)! But Guix
does _not_ (currently) support BSDs.
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-03-17 17:23 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 81+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-01-06 15:52 [bug#45692] [PATCH 0/4] Even Better ZFS Support on Guix raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-01-06 15:54 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH 1/4] gnu: Allow services to install kernel-loadable modules raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-01-08 16:16 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-02-10 14:13 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH 0/4] Even Better ZFS Support on Guix Ludovic Courtès
2021-02-10 15:44 ` Ludovic Courtès
2021-02-10 16:49 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-01-06 15:55 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH 2/4] gnu: Make file-systems target extensible by services raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-01-23 13:05 ` 宋文武
2021-01-25 0:18 ` guix-patches--- via
2021-02-10 14:17 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH 0/4] Even Better ZFS Support on Guix Ludovic Courtès
2021-02-10 14:46 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-01-06 15:56 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH 3/4] gnu: Fix ZFS package raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-01-07 8:23 ` Danny Milosavljevic
2021-01-06 15:57 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH 4/4] gnu: Add ZFS service raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-01-06 19:41 ` [bug#45703] kernel-module-configuration-service for configuring kernel parameters Danny Milosavljevic
2021-01-07 0:04 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-01-07 5:38 ` [bug#45692] " raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-01-07 9:16 ` [bug#42193] " raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-01-08 15:02 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH 4/4] gnu: Add ZFS service raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-01-09 8:31 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-02-08 3:31 ` Danny Milosavljevic
2021-02-08 6:25 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-02-10 14:27 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH 0/4] Even Better ZFS Support on Guix Ludovic Courtès
2021-02-10 14:32 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-02-13 1:49 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-03-22 14:33 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH v3 0/3] New patch series for " raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-03-28 12:55 ` Léo Le Bouter via Guix-patches via
2021-03-29 4:39 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-07-23 15:11 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-03-22 14:33 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH v3 1/3] gnu: Allow services to install kernel-loadable modules raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-05-11 14:17 ` Danny Milosavljevic
2021-03-22 14:34 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH v3 2/3] gnu: Add zfs-auto-snapshot raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-05-11 14:05 ` Danny Milosavljevic
2021-05-13 1:21 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-05-13 13:08 ` Danny Milosavljevic
2021-03-22 14:35 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH v3 3/3] gnu: Add ZFS service type raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-07-25 14:03 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-07-25 14:31 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH v4 " raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-08-01 9:41 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-08-10 11:43 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-08-31 0:48 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-09-02 20:57 ` Maxime Devos
2021-09-02 22:22 ` Maxime Devos
2021-09-03 12:41 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-09-04 18:58 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-09-06 8:08 ` zimoun
2021-09-06 10:40 ` Maxime Devos
2021-09-06 11:08 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-09-06 17:17 ` zimoun
2021-09-07 9:54 ` Maxime Devos
2021-09-08 1:23 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-09-15 14:04 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-09-21 9:42 ` zimoun
2021-09-04 21:19 ` Xinglu Chen
2021-09-06 10:52 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-09-06 14:22 ` Xinglu Chen
2021-09-02 21:24 ` [bug#45692] Gaslighting Mason Loring Bliss
2021-09-03 12:22 ` Maxime Devos
2021-09-06 7:59 ` [bug#45692] zimoun
2021-09-30 14:56 ` [bug#45692] [PATCH v5 3/3] gnu: Add ZFS service type raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-10-19 13:18 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-10-27 7:30 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-10-27 16:38 ` pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)
2021-11-30 15:26 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-12-12 13:32 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2021-12-21 21:15 ` [bug#45643] [PATCH 0/3] Better Support for ZFS on Guix Brice Waegeneire
2022-01-01 11:59 ` [bug#45692] bug#45643: " raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2022-01-19 14:24 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2022-01-07 4:21 ` [bug#45692] " raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2022-02-14 14:10 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2022-02-18 7:13 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2022-03-16 23:44 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2022-03-17 8:24 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2022-03-17 17:22 ` Maxime Devos [this message]
2022-03-17 18:38 ` zimoun
2022-03-17 19:10 ` Maxime Devos
2022-03-19 14:24 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2022-03-20 4:42 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2022-03-19 14:09 ` raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
2022-03-19 16:22 ` Leo Famulari
2022-03-19 14:25 ` [bug#45692] (No Subject) raid5atemyhomework via Guix-patches via
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