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From: Katherine Cox-Buday <cox.katherine.e@gmail.com>
To: guix-devel@gnu.org
Cc: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com>, guix-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 10:05:52 -0600	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <ba586bc9-3d43-69c6-e5fd-597542efd803@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87pm2set3x.fsf@xelera.eu>

On 9/8/23 6:40 AM, Giovanni Biscuolo wrote:
> Ricardo,
> 
> Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> writes:
> 
>> Giovanni,
>>
>>> You are obviously free not to contribute your patches upstream but the
>>> fact that you decided not to because it's "too hard" (my executive
>>> summary about your complaints about Change Log content rules) to write
>>> commit messages suitable for contribution it _not_ a Guix maintainers
>>> fault, not at all.
>>
>> As a former Guix co-maintainer I disagree with this take.  (Nobody even
>> brought up the word “fault”, which is a particularly unhelpful lens for
>> understanding social issues, in my opinion.)
> 
> sorry for using "fault", I can't find a better term
> 
>> “too hard” sounds (perhaps unintentionally) derisive.
> 
> the complete sentence is: «"too hard" (my executive summary about your
> complaints about Change Log content rules)»
> 
> what can I add about my intentions?
> 
> [...]
> 
>> It’s not that writing commit messages is hard.  It’s one of many
>> obstacles,
> 
> IMO one of the very little ones

Taking a single step is trivial. Walking a thousand miles is difficult. 
The aggregate is the thing that matters most!

And these are subjective statements, which are bad to rest decisions on. 
I have the opinion that this style of commit message is difficult and 
doesn't have a lot of value; others think it's easy and find a lot of 
value in it.

I don't place much emphasis on my opinion or others' on this, but I 
place an enormous emphasis on the existence of the two groups. We should 
be curious why the two groups hold their opinions, and curious about a 
mutual path forward.

Instead of setting up camp and throwing rocks, let's share a meal and 
create a better way for everyone.

>> We can’t blame anyone for seeing these two piles and come to the
>> conclusion that it’s not worth the hassle — especially when operating
>> your own channel is so easy in comparison.
> 
> I'm not blaming Katherine, I respect her decision; I just wanted to say:
> please don't blame the guidelines about ChangeLog for the two (or more)
> piles.

No hard feeling, Gio. I want to echo what Ricardo is saying: viewing 
these conversations through the lens of blame and fault is not the 
intent, and is not helpful. In my original message I intentionally said 
that this was not a list of grievances, but an attempt to describe the 
"shape" of the problem.

While I do search for root-causes to issues, it's not done with the 
intent to cast blame on something. It's done with curiosity, and the 
desire to make the situation better for everyone.



WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Katherine Cox-Buday <cox.katherine.e@gmail.com>
To: Giovanni Biscuolo <g@xelera.eu>, Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net>
Cc: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com>, guix-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 10:05:52 -0600	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <ba586bc9-3d43-69c6-e5fd-597542efd803@gmail.com> (raw)
Message-ID: <20230912160552.JThTbyhK1eBLTvVg9DOxfmcIOvOKawGxR3M4iMK25Ko@z> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87pm2set3x.fsf@xelera.eu>

On 9/8/23 6:40 AM, Giovanni Biscuolo wrote:
> Ricardo,
> 
> Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> writes:
> 
>> Giovanni,
>>
>>> You are obviously free not to contribute your patches upstream but the
>>> fact that you decided not to because it's "too hard" (my executive
>>> summary about your complaints about Change Log content rules) to write
>>> commit messages suitable for contribution it _not_ a Guix maintainers
>>> fault, not at all.
>>
>> As a former Guix co-maintainer I disagree with this take.  (Nobody even
>> brought up the word “fault”, which is a particularly unhelpful lens for
>> understanding social issues, in my opinion.)
> 
> sorry for using "fault", I can't find a better term
> 
>> “too hard” sounds (perhaps unintentionally) derisive.
> 
> the complete sentence is: «"too hard" (my executive summary about your
> complaints about Change Log content rules)»
> 
> what can I add about my intentions?
> 
> [...]
> 
>> It’s not that writing commit messages is hard.  It’s one of many
>> obstacles,
> 
> IMO one of the very little ones

Taking a single step is trivial. Walking a thousand miles is difficult. 
The aggregate is the thing that matters most!

And these are subjective statements, which are bad to rest decisions on. 
I have the opinion that this style of commit message is difficult and 
doesn't have a lot of value; others think it's easy and find a lot of 
value in it.

I don't place much emphasis on my opinion or others' on this, but I 
place an enormous emphasis on the existence of the two groups. We should 
be curious why the two groups hold their opinions, and curious about a 
mutual path forward.

Instead of setting up camp and throwing rocks, let's share a meal and 
create a better way for everyone.

>> We can’t blame anyone for seeing these two piles and come to the
>> conclusion that it’s not worth the hassle — especially when operating
>> your own channel is so easy in comparison.
> 
> I'm not blaming Katherine, I respect her decision; I just wanted to say:
> please don't blame the guidelines about ChangeLog for the two (or more)
> piles.

No hard feeling, Gio. I want to echo what Ricardo is saying: viewing 
these conversations through the lens of blame and fault is not the 
intent, and is not helpful. In my original message I intentionally said 
that this was not a list of grievances, but an attempt to describe the 
"shape" of the problem.

While I do search for root-causes to issues, it's not done with the 
intent to cast blame on something. It's done with curiosity, and the 
desire to make the situation better for everyone.


  reply	other threads:[~2023-09-12 16:41 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 267+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-08-23 16:25 How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-23 17:27 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-08-23 18:03   ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-25  8:07     ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-25  9:16       ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-25  9:57         ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-25 23:56           ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-25 14:44       ` Wilko Meyer
2023-08-26 14:37       ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-27 12:07         ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-27 13:57           ` Saku Laesvuori
2023-08-27 17:08             ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-29 10:04               ` MSavoritias
2023-08-29 11:05                 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-05 15:33                   ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 19:16                     ` Csepp
2023-09-05 20:43                       ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-29  3:00             ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 16:01               ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 17:01                 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 18:18                   ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-05 18:40                     ` (
2023-09-05 20:43                       ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-05 22:04                         ` wolf
2023-09-06 18:42                           ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 15:39                             ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 22:56                               ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-06  9:41                         ` Josselin Poiret
2023-09-08 14:20                           ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-10  9:35                             ` Efraim Flashner
2023-09-11 10:34                               ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-06 20:10                         ` Wojtek Kosior via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-17  8:01                           ` MSavoritias
2023-09-07 20:38                         ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-07 20:52                           ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-17  8:07                           ` MSavoritias
2023-09-05 23:41                       ` brian via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-06 16:53                         ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-06 17:52                           ` Vagrant Cascadian
2023-09-06 18:27                             ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-06 18:49                               ` Christopher Baines
2023-09-08  9:16                               ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-08 16:56                                 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-06 19:11                             ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-05 22:57                   ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-06  2:34                     ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-06  9:07                       ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-07 20:39                         ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-09 12:32                           ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-11 12:19                             ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-12 15:35                               ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 15:35                                 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-09 17:14                           ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-11 12:37                             ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-11 21:25                               ` Csepp
2023-09-12  9:09                                 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-12 11:09                                   ` Csepp
2023-09-12 14:51                                     ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-17 12:39                                       ` MSavoritias
2023-09-08 10:25                         ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-06 19:01                       ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08  9:53                       ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-08 11:28                         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 12:40                           ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-12 16:05                             ` Katherine Cox-Buday [this message]
2023-09-12 16:05                               ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-13  7:57                               ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13  9:28                                 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-12 16:08                           ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 16:08                             ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-08 12:09                         ` Efraim Flashner
2023-09-08 16:54                           ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-06  2:49                   ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-06 22:16                     ` kiasoc5
2023-09-08 15:27               ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 19:22                 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 20:37                   ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-12 16:18                     ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 16:18                       ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-09 10:01                 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-09 19:45                   ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-08-28  8:15         ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-28 17:00           ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-30  7:37             ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29  9:29         ` MSavoritias
2023-08-29 19:29           ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 14:44         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 18:50           ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 20:24             ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 23:26               ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-09 19:40                 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-09 22:20                   ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-11 10:36                     ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-11 17:53                       ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-11 18:50                         ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-12 14:42                           ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-12 16:57                             ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 15:31                               ` to PR or not to PR, is /that/ the question? Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-13 22:02                                 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-14  6:53                                   ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-14  7:30                                     ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-17 16:20                     ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? MSavoritias
2023-09-17 16:35                       ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-18  9:37                       ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-18 16:35                         ` MSavoritias
2023-09-18 17:13                           ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-18 17:39                             ` MSavoritias
2023-09-18 19:20                               ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-18 20:28                                 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-18 19:47                               ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-17 15:50             ` MSavoritias
2023-08-25 23:48     ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-27  8:35       ` Josselin Poiret
2023-08-25 23:31   ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-23 20:48 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-25  9:03   ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-27  3:27     ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-02 22:11       ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-03  1:05         ` Vagrant Cascadian
2023-09-04  8:56           ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-04 15:10             ` Efraim Flashner
2023-09-05  2:18             ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05  7:21               ` Replacing Mumi+Debbugs? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-05 13:12               ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Csepp
2023-09-05 20:30                 ` Wilko Meyer
2023-08-23 22:04 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-08-23 22:37   ` Jack Hill
2023-08-24  0:18 ` Csepp
2023-08-25  0:10   ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-08-26  0:16     ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-28 21:46     ` paul
2023-08-26  0:06   ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-27  3:00     ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-27  8:37       ` Josselin Poiret
2023-08-28  9:44         ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-27  2:50   ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-29 22:40     ` Csepp
2023-08-30  2:46       ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-28  8:52   ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-24  3:33 ` Ahmed Khanzada via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-08-26  0:25   ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-24  6:33 ` (
2023-08-26  0:39   ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-27  3:22     ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-27  7:39       ` 宋文武
2023-08-28 11:42         ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-01 19:12           ` Imran Iqbal
2023-09-03 17:45             ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-03 21:05               ` indieterminacy
2023-09-03 21:16                 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-13 12:20                   ` Fannys
2023-09-13 15:42                     ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-13 23:13                       ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-17 11:29                       ` MSavoritias
2023-09-18 10:09                         ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-19 10:33                           ` contribute with content in our official help pages? Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-19 16:35                           ` The elephant in the room and the Guix Bang Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-19 20:41                             ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-20 20:52                               ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-20  8:21                             ` Csepp
2023-09-20  8:45                               ` The e(macs)lephant " Nguyễn Gia Phong via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-20  9:28                                 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-20 14:03                                   ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-20 14:09                                     ` MSavoritias
2023-09-14  8:24                     ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-18 16:40                       ` MSavoritias
2023-09-14 17:49                     ` Sarthak Shah
2023-09-15 10:18                       ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 12:25                   ` MSavoritias
2023-09-22 15:14               ` Imran Iqbal
2023-09-22 15:30                 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-22 16:17                 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-22 16:35                 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-22 17:28                   ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-25 15:13                     ` Enabling contribution through documentation Samuel Christie via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-10-16 20:18                       ` Matt
2023-11-06 22:43                         ` Samuel Christie via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-11-11  1:14                           ` Matt
2023-08-28  6:12     ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? (
2023-08-28  9:14     ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-29  9:53       ` MSavoritias
2023-09-05  7:54         ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 12:59           ` MSavoritias
2023-09-14  8:18             ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-08-26 17:40   ` kiasoc5
2023-08-24  9:06 ` Wilko Meyer
2023-08-25  9:31   ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-26 17:42     ` kiasoc5
2023-08-26 18:53       ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-26 21:35         ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-27  8:26       ` Non-committer comments on patches Andreas Enge
2023-08-28  6:17       ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? (
2023-08-28 10:01       ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-28  9:26     ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-24 18:53 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-26  1:02   ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-28 10:17     ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-30 16:11       ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-30 16:53         ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-30 19:02         ` MSavoritias
2023-09-02 11:16         ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-02 13:48           ` paul
2023-09-02 19:08             ` Csepp
2023-09-02 20:23               ` wolf
2023-09-02 23:08                 ` Csepp
2023-09-04 10:23               ` Attila Lendvai
2023-09-04 12:44                 ` brian via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-04 14:35                   ` Attila Lendvai
2023-09-04 18:13                   ` Andreas Enge
2023-09-05  9:58                     ` pinoaffe
2023-09-05 14:22                       ` brian via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-05 15:25                         ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 13:19                     ` Csepp
2023-09-05 15:30                       ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 19:08                         ` Csepp
2023-09-06 12:14                         ` Attila Lendvai
2023-09-06 12:56                           ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-06 16:03                           ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-04 19:16                   ` phil
2023-09-04 18:22                 ` Andreas Enge
2023-09-02 16:08           ` Csepp
2023-09-02 18:27             ` Mumi search broken? (was: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-03  7:36             ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-03  8:53               ` paul
2023-09-03 10:31                 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-03 14:53                   ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-04  9:40                     ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-03 18:18                   ` Csepp
2023-09-03 20:32                     ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-05  8:43                   ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 18:04               ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 19:15           ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-13 13:24           ` MSavoritias
2023-09-05  1:32         ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 17:19           ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 14:01         ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 18:00           ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 20:39             ` Guix User Survey? Wilko Meyer
2023-09-05 23:55             ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Simon Tournier
2023-09-06  2:58               ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-06  9:34                 ` Next action, survey? Simon Tournier
2023-09-07 20:39                   ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-08  6:31               ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? (
2023-09-05 22:11           ` wolf
2023-09-05 23:02             ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 13:59           ` MSavoritias
2023-08-28 21:41 ` paul
2023-08-29  8:32   ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29  9:31   ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29 11:28     ` git interfaces (was Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29 23:11     ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Csepp
2023-08-30  8:39     ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-30  9:33       ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-30  0:22 ` Danny Milosavljevic
2023-08-30  9:41   ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-30 12:33     ` commit message helpers (was Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-04 13:36   ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-05  3:25     ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05  7:48       ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-04 11:09 ` David Larsson
2023-09-04 22:06 ` Mumi CLI client (was: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Arun Isaac
2023-09-05  8:58   ` Debbugs CLI client (was Re: Mumi CLI client (was: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?))) Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 10:37   ` Mumi CLI client (was: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-08 16:49     ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-12 14:55       ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-13  8:52         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-13 10:26           ` Commenting bug reports via mumi web interface " Giovanni Biscuolo

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