From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:478a::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id 0I56HMeUAGWXwgAAG6o9tA:P1 (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 18:41:43 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:478a::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id 0I56HMeUAGWXwgAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 18:41:43 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0415A51875 for ; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 18:06:38 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1694534799; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=XpUs+vsUig/Upu+PrBihUY1NsvdDJt1epDM7Cr6GR54=; b=eiK6Q6eF8HfUL/3hn5/78lw/Fudf+QbtlZPkjYidAjHR2SruqlAoaOPwJ3usCxR4jjCLgQ bIHZRQOT2pVroONJfTyoRmxLI02bwyxLIWvnAlNG9yHdoAMuT1EuMB7rjLN1eISCVMeKK4 iDy5UNeISvh0YXEyvVfURRDXQcxla9B7t70+EVxn1loh7t3ueS0D3rVTiPztSNoHgGv79g yvkfusdGwRVU8EhD9mIC25Xr2ddclu8x4LFlVMA1Su51fhjfnk7RU2iOWHTbl09YJw1k+b tswmoYLQ8W7siw0C66fZjBUq7gLhT0P9B3bhvZ2bd8ACebfaa/DKpGvMFdsSkg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1694534799; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=rP3F9zALkPk6YE/BhygHEkEUJ8D0Hw0l7Aku3HRynuVotTkC4DxHbiTxz01H8E/qzCr19y kGnyGT7HAl0WPboKNPd9+sdPCUotg/ptROGPpaxze+4przm3GoTjLSueNnkOp3B4OCTelI lskweXtIK1JCpp1Xwa2C54mYFmqkRDuHotPp05PBci3cTKZe6gWyzoKwRUY4pFJj5QdqFH uzrAFbEvpx8uMxnjf16zDPgkw9ire/dIAiLA4Dz5K0GVwHCtnRRluLkAD1oAFBPVd+rML9 ZOp9oc9clp9Soykhr8RAL+Z0oGjMMQvp7Kdo5tZsPGBkIFRUasjEjPJdlntYYQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qg5tv-0004l8-Ai; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 12:06:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qg5tt-0004kq-2E for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 12:06:05 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qg5tq-0005pi-U9 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 12:06:04 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qg5to-0005EO-8M for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 18:06:00 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: guix-devel@gnu.org From: Katherine Cox-Buday Subject: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 10:05:52 -0600 Message-ID: References: <20230827135726.y33t55w4cvq6zsvb@X-kone> <874jkift8v.fsf@gmail.com> <867cp4sj7k.fsf@gmail.com> <38242808-2f06-4674-3842-aea1a5378d05@gmail.com> <86v8cop6sy.fsf@gmail.com> <87v8cldm8o.fsf@xelera.eu> <871qf87uzc.fsf@elephly.net> <87pm2set3x.fsf@xelera.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.15.0 Cc: Simon Tournier , guix-devel@gnu.org Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <87pm2set3x.fsf@xelera.eu> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=gcggd-guix-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -9 X-Spam_score: -1.0 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.473, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 3.22 X-Spam-Score: 3.22 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 0415A51875 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx0.migadu.com X-TUID: 1m+lNFDO87U+ On 9/8/23 6:40 AM, Giovanni Biscuolo wrote: > Ricardo, > > Ricardo Wurmus writes: > >> Giovanni, >> >>> You are obviously free not to contribute your patches upstream but the >>> fact that you decided not to because it's "too hard" (my executive >>> summary about your complaints about Change Log content rules) to write >>> commit messages suitable for contribution it _not_ a Guix maintainers >>> fault, not at all. >> >> As a former Guix co-maintainer I disagree with this take. (Nobody even >> brought up the word “fault”, which is a particularly unhelpful lens for >> understanding social issues, in my opinion.) > > sorry for using "fault", I can't find a better term > >> “too hard” sounds (perhaps unintentionally) derisive. > > the complete sentence is: «"too hard" (my executive summary about your > complaints about Change Log content rules)» > > what can I add about my intentions? > > [...] > >> It’s not that writing commit messages is hard. It’s one of many >> obstacles, > > IMO one of the very little ones Taking a single step is trivial. Walking a thousand miles is difficult. The aggregate is the thing that matters most! And these are subjective statements, which are bad to rest decisions on. I have the opinion that this style of commit message is difficult and doesn't have a lot of value; others think it's easy and find a lot of value in it. I don't place much emphasis on my opinion or others' on this, but I place an enormous emphasis on the existence of the two groups. We should be curious why the two groups hold their opinions, and curious about a mutual path forward. Instead of setting up camp and throwing rocks, let's share a meal and create a better way for everyone. >> We can’t blame anyone for seeing these two piles and come to the >> conclusion that it’s not worth the hassle — especially when operating >> your own channel is so easy in comparison. > > I'm not blaming Katherine, I respect her decision; I just wanted to say: > please don't blame the guidelines about ChangeLog for the two (or more) > piles. No hard feeling, Gio. I want to echo what Ricardo is saying: viewing these conversations through the lens of blame and fault is not the intent, and is not helpful. In my original message I intentionally said that this was not a list of grievances, but an attempt to describe the "shape" of the problem. While I do search for root-causes to issues, it's not done with the intent to cast blame on something. It's done with curiosity, and the desire to make the situation better for everyone. 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[174.51.218.141]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y4-20020a5e8704000000b0078647b08ab0sm2899539ioj.6.2023.09.12.09.05.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Sep 2023 09:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 10:05:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.15.0 Subject: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Content-Language: en-US To: Giovanni Biscuolo , Ricardo Wurmus Cc: Simon Tournier , guix-devel@gnu.org Newsgroups: gmane.comp.gnu.guix.devel References: <20230827135726.y33t55w4cvq6zsvb@X-kone> <874jkift8v.fsf@gmail.com> <867cp4sj7k.fsf@gmail.com> <38242808-2f06-4674-3842-aea1a5378d05@gmail.com> <86v8cop6sy.fsf@gmail.com> <87v8cldm8o.fsf@xelera.eu> <871qf87uzc.fsf@elephly.net> <87pm2set3x.fsf@xelera.eu> From: Katherine Cox-Buday In-Reply-To: <87pm2set3x.fsf@xelera.eu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32; envelope-from=cox.katherine.e@gmail.com; helo=mail-io1-xd32.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -35 X-Spam_score: -3.6 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.473, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Scanner: mx1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 1.39 X-Spam-Score: 1.39 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 92F1D412E6 X-TUID: 5zvaV4m2SDyS Message-ID: <20230912160552.JThTbyhK1eBLTvVg9DOxfmcIOvOKawGxR3M4iMK25Ko@z> On 9/8/23 6:40 AM, Giovanni Biscuolo wrote: > Ricardo, > > Ricardo Wurmus writes: > >> Giovanni, >> >>> You are obviously free not to contribute your patches upstream but the >>> fact that you decided not to because it's "too hard" (my executive >>> summary about your complaints about Change Log content rules) to write >>> commit messages suitable for contribution it _not_ a Guix maintainers >>> fault, not at all. >> >> As a former Guix co-maintainer I disagree with this take. (Nobody even >> brought up the word “fault”, which is a particularly unhelpful lens for >> understanding social issues, in my opinion.) > > sorry for using "fault", I can't find a better term > >> “too hard” sounds (perhaps unintentionally) derisive. > > the complete sentence is: «"too hard" (my executive summary about your > complaints about Change Log content rules)» > > what can I add about my intentions? > > [...] > >> It’s not that writing commit messages is hard. It’s one of many >> obstacles, > > IMO one of the very little ones Taking a single step is trivial. Walking a thousand miles is difficult. The aggregate is the thing that matters most! And these are subjective statements, which are bad to rest decisions on. I have the opinion that this style of commit message is difficult and doesn't have a lot of value; others think it's easy and find a lot of value in it. I don't place much emphasis on my opinion or others' on this, but I place an enormous emphasis on the existence of the two groups. We should be curious why the two groups hold their opinions, and curious about a mutual path forward. Instead of setting up camp and throwing rocks, let's share a meal and create a better way for everyone. >> We can’t blame anyone for seeing these two piles and come to the >> conclusion that it’s not worth the hassle — especially when operating >> your own channel is so easy in comparison. > > I'm not blaming Katherine, I respect her decision; I just wanted to say: > please don't blame the guidelines about ChangeLog for the two (or more) > piles. No hard feeling, Gio. I want to echo what Ricardo is saying: viewing these conversations through the lens of blame and fault is not the intent, and is not helpful. In my original message I intentionally said that this was not a list of grievances, but an attempt to describe the "shape" of the problem. While I do search for root-causes to issues, it's not done with the intent to cast blame on something. It's done with curiosity, and the desire to make the situation better for everyone.