Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?

[Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@elenq.tech>]

Hi,


> On Sun, Sep 03, 2023 at 05:45:41PM +0000, Ekaitz Zarraga wrote:
> 
> > I use protonmail and they don't provide smtp access so I can't do git
> > send-mail as easy as other people do.
> 
> 
> A mail provider not allowing SMTP is a git forge that does not allow git
> push.


This is a feeling, not a fact.

> > This is not Guix's fault, but it's a problem Guix doesn't help fix either.
> 
> This is not on guix to fix, this in you with your choice of mail
> provider.

I didn't say it's a problem Guix needs to fix.
Also, what I'm trying to say here is maybe I didn't have the chance to choose
my email provider.
This is the exact behavior that I was saying it's not helpful.

The email based approach is fantastic, and as good as it is, is flexible enough
to let me use it even if I don't have SMTP access.
What I think Guix docs lack is an explanation for those users like me, that
don't have the privilege or the mental clarity to choose an email provider that
matches your standards.

> > This doesn't mean I'm against the email based approach, in fact, I really
> > like it. The main problem I see is many people inside guix are not
> > sensible to people's problems and tastes.
> 
> The problem is people's tastes are "we need to use the web browser for
> everything" which is what computers have become in a advertising and VC
> funded world. We should not be forcing that on people.


This is a projection, not what I meant.

And even with that, if everyone wants to use the browser for everything
maybe, if what we want is to *actually* reduce the cognitive overhead of
people we *should* consider giving them a chance.
Or should we *correct* people's tastes because they are wrong, as you
suggest here?

I'm not asking Guix to change the tools but the information about them.
Make them more approachable doesn't necessarily mean to use a flashy web
application imho. It means to give tools and knowledge, or at least to
give enough pointers to that knowledge to let people jump in and feel
comfortable in an easy way.

So, in any case I meant what you are implying here, and I even find slightly
offensive that kind of comment. It feels pretty insensible and purposely 
misleading. 

(Also: VCs and advertising have nothing to do with this, people who proposed
forges proposed quite reasonable alternatives)

> > Some people are forced to use tools for several reasons, too.
> 
> But text editing and email the two things which there are a plethora of
> tools, and it's very hard to imagine a scenario where someone is forced
> into using one.

Some people can't install things in their devices, or they can't access
the network using certain protocols. Giving alternatives helps that group
of people.
 
> > This is what I mean when I say many times emacs is kind of mandatory, and
> > this thread is kind of a demonstration of what I meant because the main
> > discussion evolved to: you can use this or that in emacs to ease the dev
> > experience.
> 
> This is because emacs is a lisp machine that just happens to let you
> edit text. If you are working in a lisp-y language, emacs provides the
> best development experience. Emacs also lets you hand mail inside of
> emacs (among many many other things). This does not mean you are forced
> to use emacs. I use neovim and neomutt for my needs.

Again, this comment assumes I don't understand the reasons behind it.
The problem I'm trying to point is not that emacs is not great, but the fact
that new people to the project has tons of info about emacs and around zero
about any other editor or configuration, giving them the false (as you point)
image that emacs is mandatory to work in guix.

It's a matter of sensibility, exactly the thing you are not having here.

> > I don't think software we use is the main problem, but the fact that we
> > are not always sensible with other people's experience.
> 
> Imagine a different scenario, where instead of this being about email it
> was around guile. Would it be fair to say that a Guix makes it hard
> to contribute by choosing to be implemented in guile? And that Guix
> should move towards using another language that more people are familiar
> with like python or javascript?

That argument is not a fair argument either.
Guile is structural in Guix, but emails are not and (you said it) emacs is
not either.

Also, what we are trying to do here is to reduce the cognitive overhead of
*contributors*, not from every possible individual in the world.

This is not only misleading, but unfair with my comment.
You nitpicked every part of my message you could use for your final argument.
Which is the following:
 
> Personally I don't think its fair to ask Guix to move away from emails
> because folks are more familiar with using web browsers for everything.

First, I didn't, and most of the people didn't, ask Guix to move away from
emails.

Second, folks that are more familiar with web browsers are not inferior to
the users that like using the email. If the majority of people in guix
think it's a good idea to move to a web based approach, I think, the fairest
thing for guix to do is to acknowledge that, at least.
That's probably not the case in this email thread, but if people like it in
the future, maybe we should do it.

Now, my opinion, in a different perspective. Just in case I didn't express
it properly.

I really like the email approach but it is true it can be hard to follow for
new people. That doesn't really bother me a lot. The focus should be on
contributors. I am a contributor, Katherine, who started this, is a contributor
that has potential to contribute way more and we don't have the pleasure to
get commits from because of this overhead.
Using a web based approach is probably not going to fix it, but listening to
people's needs and find a way to make the process smoother probably will.

It's a job that involves all of us. From my side, instead of blaming people
for their choices, I'll try to take part in the survey (which is a really
good consequence of this thread) and from it probably take the responsibility
to write some docs or help people from my perspective as a person that doesn't
use emacs and loves lisp, guile and guix anyway. 


Best regards,
Ekaitz