Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Bruce Korb]

Chris Bitmead wrote:
> 
> I've got a chance to get Guile as the major programming language on a
> major government project, but in order for it to fly with the powers
> that be its got to work on Windows and Linux with GTK and Goops.
> 
> But I've been tearing my hair out trying to get it to build. I'm about
> ready to give up. I presume it should work but I can't even get guile of
> any version to build on Windows, let alone goops or guile-gtk. On linux
> I got it to work, although even then I had to spend a bit of time in
> hacking mode.
> 
> Can anybody help me out or tell me if what I'm trying to do is impossible?
> 
> Or is there another Scheme that works on Linux and Windows with an OO
> system and some decent gui library like GTK?

It would be good for the Guile page to refer people to the
lilypond project for this.  You can do an over the net
install of CygWin + Guile.  'course, you get lilypond, too.  :-)
I have a link on my page:

  http://autogen.sourceforge.net/

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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Chris Bitmead]

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions which I will look into, including 
the people who pointed me towards plt-scheme, which I will investigate. 
BTW, I'm interested why the plt-scheme supporters are hanging around the 
guile mailing list?

For the guile people, I think you're missing a big opportunity to supply 
guile pre-built in binary form, especially on Windows where it's harder 
to build. (It aint a walk in the park on Linux either). Bundle goops and 
gtk into a Windows build with full Linux compatibility and I think you 
have a very attractive app. Lots of people, especially governments must 
have multi-platform compatibility and it is a shoe in for gnu software. 
I will also look at lilypond to see if that helps.





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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Christopher Cramer]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:51:38PM +1000, Chris Bitmead wrote:
> For the guile people, I think you're missing a big opportunity to supply 
> guile pre-built in binary form, especially on Windows where it's harder 
> to build. (It aint a walk in the park on Linux either). Bundle goops and 
> gtk into a Windows build with full Linux compatibility and I think you 
> have a very attractive app. Lots of people, especially governments must 
> have multi-platform compatibility and it is a shoe in for gnu software. 
> I will also look at lilypond to see if that helps.

You may have a point with Windows, but AFAIK every major Linux
distribution comes with Guile already. Of course, they mostly have
old versions, but that's another problem...

-- 
Christopher Cramer <crayc@pyro.net> <http://www.pyro.net/~crayc/>
On résiste à l'invasion des armées; on ne résiste pas à l'invasion
des idées.  -- Victor Hugo

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Re: Guile and MS-Windows / GTK+

[Chris Bitmead]

Ok, I seem to have succeeded in building guile on Windows, but gtk I 
can't figure out. In fact I can't seem to find a pre-built version of 
gtk on windows suitable for development! All of them are either missing 
the include files or gtk-config. Lilypond, unless I am mistaken does not 
include gtk.

Has anybody successfully built guile-gtk on Windows??




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Re: Guile and MS-Windows / GTK+

[Neil Jerram]

>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Bitmead <mailinglist@bitmead.com> writes:

    Chris> Ok, I seem to have succeeded in building guile on Windows, but gtk I
    Chris> can't figure out. In fact I can't seem to find a pre-built version of
    Chris> gtk on windows suitable for development! All of them are either
    Chris> missing the include files or gtk-config. Lilypond, unless I am
    Chris> mistaken does not include gtk.

    Chris> Has anybody successfully built guile-gtk on Windows??

No, but I might try in the next week.  (I realize this is probably not
quick enough for you.)  Just to clarify, are you looking for something
that works in a cygwin environment, or for something built using MSVC?

        Neil


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Re: Guile and MS-Windows / GTK+

[Chris Bitmead]

If guile is working with gtk and goops on windows I don't care that much 
which environment. But I would have thought it would be cygwin.

Neil Jerram wrote:

>>>>>>"Chris" == Chris Bitmead <mailinglist@bitmead.com> writes:
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>
>    Chris> Ok, I seem to have succeeded in building guile on Windows, but gtk I
>    Chris> can't figure out. In fact I can't seem to find a pre-built version of
>    Chris> gtk on windows suitable for development! All of them are either
>    Chris> missing the include files or gtk-config. Lilypond, unless I am
>    Chris> mistaken does not include gtk.
>
>    Chris> Has anybody successfully built guile-gtk on Windows??
>
>No, but I might try in the next week.  (I realize this is probably not
>quick enough for you.)  Just to clarify, are you looking for something
>that works in a cygwin environment, or for something built using MSVC?
>
>        Neil
>  
>



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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Clinton Ebadi]

On Friday 28 June 2002 01:51, Chris Bitmead wrote:

> For the guile people, I think you're missing a big opportunity to supply
> guile pre-built in binary form, especially on Windows where it's harder
> to build. (It aint a walk in the park on Linux either). Bundle goops and
> gtk into a Windows build with full Linux compatibility and I think you
> have a very attractive app. Lots of people, especially governments must
> have multi-platform compatibility and it is a shoe in for gnu software.
> I will also look at lilypond to see if that helps.

What? ./autogen.sh && ./configure --enable-maintainer-mode --with-threads && 
make && sudo make install worked for me.

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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Chris Bitmead]

For guile-gtk?

Clinton Ebadi wrote:

>On Friday 28 June 2002 01:51, Chris Bitmead wrote:
>
>  
>
>>For the guile people, I think you're missing a big opportunity to supply
>>guile pre-built in binary form, especially on Windows where it's harder
>>to build. (It aint a walk in the park on Linux either). Bundle goops and
>>gtk into a Windows build with full Linux compatibility and I think you
>>have a very attractive app. Lots of people, especially governments must
>>have multi-platform compatibility and it is a shoe in for gnu software.
>>I will also look at lilypond to see if that helps.
>>    
>>
>
>What? ./autogen.sh && ./configure --enable-maintainer-mode --with-threads && 
>make && sudo make install worked for me.
>
>  
>



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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Clinton Ebadi]

On Monday 01 July 2002 19:09, Chris Bitmead wrote:
> For guile-gtk?

Oops, I thought you meant Guile itself. Guile-Gtk won't build or run with 
Guile 1.5.x ... I made some patches for it to make it work with Guile 1.7 a 
while back, but they don't work with 1.7 or 1.5 anymore :(. Guile-Gobject 
suffers a problem with not running (I patched this but never sent anyone the 
patch...) but even after I fixed the calling-the-wrong-function-infinite-loop 
bug it still won't run:

guile> (use-modules (gnome gobject))  
/usr/local/share/guile/gnome/gobject.scm:109:7: While evaluating arguments to 
gtype-eq? in expression (gtype-eq? type gtype:gflags):
/usr/local/share/guile/gnome/gobject.scm:109:7: Unbound variable: gtype:gflags
ABORT: (unbound-variable)

None of the gtype: variables are being defined and I can't tell where they are 
supposed to be defined (generated automatically? Explicitly defined 
somewhere? Ack).

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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Chris Bitmead]

Hmm, just checked out PLT-Scheme. The Gui is so limited it doesn't even 
have something like a grid or table widget. And for this app it's very 
visual I need a pretty good set of widgets, including some kind of grid. 
And the OO system looks more awful to me the longer I look at it, but I 
guess I could live with it if the gui was ok.

Is there any scheme out there with some decent cross-platform gui 
support, and works on at least Windows and Unix, preferably Mac too? Am 
I asking so much?






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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Ken Anderson]

At 10:41 AM 7/2/2002, Chris Bitmead wrote:

>Hmm, just checked out PLT-Scheme. The Gui is so limited it doesn't even 
>have something like a grid or table widget. And for this app it's very 
>visual I need a pretty good set of widgets, including some kind of grid. 
>And the OO system looks more awful to me the longer I look at it, but I 
>guess I could live with it if the gui was ok.
>
>Is there any scheme out there with some decent cross-platform gui support, 
>and works on at least Windows and Unix, preferably Mac too? Am I asking so 
>much?
Not at all.  There are several Schemes implemented in Java that should let 
you do portable gui development easily.  Here are 3:

http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/
http://jscheme.sourceforge.net/jscheme/mainwebpage.html
http://sisc.sourceforge.net/

I use Jscheme.


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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Chris Bitmead]

Yeah, ok well they should be considered. But jscheme is an interpreter 
within an interpreter == unnecessarily slow. None of them technically 
are Scheme (no call/cc, blurry picture on full tail calls etc). Kawa's 
type system makes it rather inconvenient to use Java libraries like 
Swing (strings in kawa are not strings in java etc). Neither have built 
in a nice CLOS-ish object system which makes life worth living.

Let me put it this way: Is Full-Scheme-Language+CLOS+portable convenient 
gui on Windows+Linux too much to ask?

Ken Anderson wrote:

> At 10:41 AM 7/2/2002, Chris Bitmead wrote:
>
>> Hmm, just checked out PLT-Scheme. The Gui is so limited it doesn't 
>> even have something like a grid or table widget. And for this app 
>> it's very visual I need a pretty good set of widgets, including some 
>> kind of grid. And the OO system looks more awful to me the longer I 
>> look at it, but I guess I could live with it if the gui was ok.
>>
>> Is there any scheme out there with some decent cross-platform gui 
>> support, and works on at least Windows and Unix, preferably Mac too? 
>> Am I asking so much?
>
> Not at all.  There are several Schemes implemented in Java that should 
> let you do portable gui development easily.  Here are 3:
>
> http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/
> http://jscheme.sourceforge.net/jscheme/mainwebpage.html
> http://sisc.sourceforge.net/
>
> I use Jscheme.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Guile-devel mailing list
> Guile-devel@gnu.org
> http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/guile-devel




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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Ken Anderson]

At 08:47 AM 7/3/2002, Chris Bitmead wrote:

>Yeah, ok well they should be considered. But jscheme is an interpreter 
>within an interpreter == unnecessarily slow. None of them technically are 
>Scheme (no

I think you'll find the performance of modern Java's, such as 1.3 or 1.4 
very acceptable.  When using Jscheme to do Swing GUI's you don't notice any 
performance difference because Jscheme is just assembling Swing components 
and Java is doing most of the work.

>call/cc, blurry picture on full tail calls etc). Kawa's type system makes 
>it rather inconvenient to use Java libraries like Swing (strings in kawa 
>are not strings in java etc). Neither have built in a nice CLOS-ish object 
>system which makes life worth living.
>
>Let me put it this way: Is Full-Scheme-Language+CLOS+portable convenient 
>gui on Windows+Linux too much to ask?

SISC is a full scheme.  It shouldn't be hard to add a Scheme Swing library 
like Jscheme's JLIB.

Jscheme has chosen to stay close to Java, so integrating Scheme and Java is 
fairly painless.  It does handle tail recursion.  While it does not have a 
CLOS object system, it has multimethods and you can define Java classes in 
Scheme.

To do a CLOS in a Scheme built on top of Java you need to decide how the 
CLOS and Java objects interact.  For example, in Jython, Jython classes 
look to Java like java classes.  However, there semantics are slightly 
different which can get confusing.  I'll have to think about how one might 
do CLOS in java some more.


>Ken Anderson wrote:
>
>>At 10:41 AM 7/2/2002, Chris Bitmead wrote:
>>
>>>Hmm, just checked out PLT-Scheme. The Gui is so limited it doesn't even 
>>>have something like a grid or table widget. And for this app it's very 
>>>visual I need a pretty good set of widgets, including some kind of grid. 
>>>And the OO system looks more awful to me the longer I look at it, but I 
>>>guess I could live with it if the gui was ok.
>>>
>>>Is there any scheme out there with some decent cross-platform gui 
>>>support, and works on at least Windows and Unix, preferably Mac too? Am 
>>>I asking so much?
>>
>>Not at all.  There are several Schemes implemented in Java that should 
>>let you do portable gui development easily.  Here are 3:
>>
>>http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/
>>http://jscheme.sourceforge.net/jscheme/mainwebpage.html
>>http://sisc.sourceforge.net/
>>
>>I use Jscheme.
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Guile-devel mailing list
>>Guile-devel@gnu.org
>>http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/guile-devel
>
>
>


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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Per Bothner]

Chris Bitmead wrote:

> Yeah, ok well they should be considered. But jscheme is an interpreter 
> within an interpreter == unnecessarily slow. None of them technically 
> are Scheme (no call/cc, blurry picture on full tail calls etc).

I'm curious what you actually want to have full call/cc for - except as 
a "check-off (completeness) item.

> Kawa's type system makes it rather inconvenient to use Java libraries 
> like Swing (strings in kawa are not strings in java etc). 

Make up your mind :  Do you want complete Scheme?  If so you can't have 
strings in Kawa be strings in Java,
because the latter as immutable.

However, Kawa does automatically and conveniently convert from Scheme 
strings to Java strings.
That's the best you can get if you want Scheme strings to be modifiable.

> Neither have built in a nice CLOS-ish object system which makes life 
> worth living.

Kawa has a nice builtin CLOS-ish object system - but but it does need 
work!  The design is
quite nice, though.


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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Chris Bitmead]

>
>
>> Yeah, ok well they should be considered. But jscheme is an 
>> interpreter within an interpreter == unnecessarily slow. None of them 
>> technically are Scheme (no call/cc, blurry picture on full tail calls 
>> etc).
>
>
> I'm curious what you actually want to have full call/cc for - except 
> as a "check-off (completeness) item. 


As far as I know, I don't. Does anyone know prior to starting a project 
if it is needed? Also, what if I pull in an external library that uses 
it? Ok, I'm not quite experienced enough in Scheme to know how likely 
that is.

>> Kawa's type system makes it rather inconvenient to use Java libraries 
>> like Swing (strings in kawa are not strings in java etc). 
>
>
> Make up your mind :  Do you want complete Scheme?  If so you can't 
> have strings in Kawa be strings in Java,
> because the latter as immutable. 

I guess my point was, it would be nice if there is a complete Scheme 
with access to a good gui with a convenient API. Whether that may be a 
non-Java solution, or say a Java solution where somebody "wraps" up the 
Swing APIs with a Scheme sympathetic solution, converting types where 
necessary.

> However, Kawa does automatically and conveniently convert from Scheme 
> strings to Java strings.
> That's the best you can get if you want Scheme strings to be modifiable. 

I can't seem to see that in the documentation.

>> Neither have built in a nice CLOS-ish object system which makes life 
>> worth living.
>
>
> Kawa has a nice builtin CLOS-ish object system - but but it does need 
> work!  The design is
> quite nice, though.

I can't seem to see that in the documentation.




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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Ken Anderson]

At 10:30 PM 7/5/2002, Chris Bitmead wrote:


>>>Yeah, ok well they should be considered. But jscheme is an interpreter 
>>>within an interpreter == unnecessarily slow. None of them technically 
>>>are Scheme (no call/cc, blurry picture on full tail calls etc).
>>
>>
>>I'm curious what you actually want to have full call/cc for - except as a 
>>"check-off (completeness) item.
>
>
>As far as I know, I don't. Does anyone know prior to starting a project if 
>it is needed? Also, what if I pull in an external library that uses it? 
>Ok, I'm not quite experienced enough in Scheme to know how likely that is.


I'm a beginner too, having only done Scheme for the past 4.5 years.  To 
make it worse, my scheme never had call/cc, so i never learned how to take 
advantage of it. My current belief is that if your Scheme has full call/cc, 
you just use it.  If it doesn't, you make do without it, because that's 
what you do in any language that's missing the feature you want.

Dick Gabriel made a comment about Scheme once, that suggested to me that 
without call/cc Scheme is relatively easy to implement in languages like C 
and Java.  Requiring call/cc is an extra step in language 
implementation.  Probably a step as least as large as requiring 
GC.  Perhaps we are currently more willing to live without call/cc than we 
are about living without GC.

We need to provide good examples of using call/cc, so that future 
implementations will be more willing to provide it.


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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Christopher Cramer]

On Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 06:11:46PM -0400, Ken Anderson wrote:
> My current belief is that if your Scheme has full call/cc, you just
> use it. If it doesn't, you make do without it, because that's what you
> do in any language that's missing the feature you want.

I've been using Guile for years now, but I've never used call/cc except
when I really tried to see if I could use it. I'm convinced that it's
not nearly as useful as most people seem to think. Sometimes I wonder
if the simple fact that call/cc is so difficult to implement efficiently
justifies its removal from Scheme.

call/cc to me is sort of like operator overloading in C++. It's neat, but
have you ever tried to understand code that used it extensively?

-- 
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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Per Bothner]

Chris Bitmead wrote:

>> However, Kawa does automatically and conveniently convert from Scheme 
>> strings to Java strings.
>> That's the best you can get if you want Scheme strings to be modifiable. 
>
> I can't seem to see that in the documentation.

Just try it.  Perhaps it should be documented somewhere, but I'm not 
sure where.
It  may be implicit in the documentation of iboke, invoke-static, and 
the "Types" chapter,
including the documentation of <String> (with initial captial).

>> Kawa has a nice builtin CLOS-ish object system - but but it does need 
>> work!  The design is
>> quite nice, though.
>
>
> I can't seem to see that in the documentation.

It's in this section:

> http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/Defining-new-classes.html


CLOS-style methods are still unsupported, though the core fraedmwork is 
sort-of there, though not
implemented all that well.  (This ties in with the Scheme calling 
convention.)
See also the make-procedure function.



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Re: Guile and MS-Windows on Major Govt. Project...

[Chris Bitmead]

> I think you'll find the performance of modern Java's, such as 1.3 or 
> 1.4 very acceptable.  When using Jscheme to do Swing GUI's you don't 
> notice any performance difference because Jscheme is just assembling 
> Swing components and Java is doing most of the work. 


I'm not worried about the gui, I'm worried about the actions of the gui. 
The app I want to do may have to do some manipulating and 
transformations of largish files.

>> call/cc, blurry picture on full tail calls etc). Kawa's type system 
>> makes it rather inconvenient to use Java libraries like Swing 
>> (strings in kawa are not strings in java etc). Neither have built in 
>> a nice CLOS-ish object system which makes life worth living.
>>
>> Let me put it this way: Is Full-Scheme-Language+CLOS+portable 
>> convenient gui on Windows+Linux too much to ask?
>
>
> SISC is a full scheme. 

Ok, I didn't know about SISC. I'm impressed that it supports full r5rs. 
I'm disappointed that the penalty of using Java and supporting tail 
calls is that the benchmarks take 2.5 times as long to run as kawa. (and 
jscheme is twice as slow again). And the option to compile Kawa to 
native and get about 10x the performance is hard to resist keeping as an 
option in reserve, as I presume you can do with Hobbit for guile. It's 
hard to throw away that option up front without knowing how much you 
will need that performance down the track.

> It shouldn't be hard to add a Scheme Swing library like Jscheme's JLIB. 

Well Jscheme supports some fancy syntax for interfacing with Java so I 
would have thought JLIB would be a bit of a job to port.

> Jscheme has chosen to stay close to Java, so integrating Scheme and 
> Java is fairly painless.  It does handle tail recursion.  

I have got a suspician it only handles "obvious" tail calls, but I'm 
happy to be proved wrong.

> While it does not have a CLOS object system, it has multimethods and 
> you can define Java classes in Scheme.
>
> To do a CLOS in a Scheme built on top of Java you need to decide how 
> the CLOS and Java objects interact.  For example, in Jython, Jython 
> classes look to Java like java classes.  However, there semantics are 
> slightly different which can get confusing.  I'll have to think about 
> how one might do CLOS in java some more. 

Well, just having CLOS would probably be ok with me, even if that aspect 
doesn't interact particularly with Java objects.

>
>
>
>> Ken Anderson wrote:
>>
>>> At 10:41 AM 7/2/2002, Chris Bitmead wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hmm, just checked out PLT-Scheme. The Gui is so limited it doesn't 
>>>> even have something like a grid or table widget. And for this app 
>>>> it's very visual I need a pretty good set of widgets, including 
>>>> some kind of grid. And the OO system looks more awful to me the 
>>>> longer I look at it, but I guess I could live with it if the gui 
>>>> was ok.
>>>>
>>>> Is there any scheme out there with some decent cross-platform gui 
>>>> support, and works on at least Windows and Unix, preferably Mac 
>>>> too? Am I asking so much?
>>>
>>>
>>> Not at all.  There are several Schemes implemented in Java that 
>>> should let you do portable gui development easily.  Here are 3:
>>>
>>> http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/
>>> http://jscheme.sourceforge.net/jscheme/mainwebpage.html
>>> http://sisc.sourceforge.net/
>>>
>>> I use Jscheme.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Guile-devel mailing list
>>> Guile-devel@gnu.org
>>> http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/guile-devel
>>
>>
>>
>>



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