From: carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Cc: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>,
Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>,
help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Making a function than can only be used interactively
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 00:34:09 +0200 (CEST) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <N6UwisS--3-2@tutanota.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <SJ0PR10MB5488010E6C95A203EBC46907F3829@SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
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Jul 8, 2022, 22:17 by drew.adams@oracle.com:
>>> Dunno whether it's a coincidence (I'm guessing no),
>>> but in the past couple of weeks there've been a
>>> boatload of similar questions on emacs.SE. Here
>>> are some of them:
>>>
>>
>> I saw them and got the same kind of problem of how
>> to write interactive function.
>>
>
> I can tell - by your just now writing this, even after
> reading my message:
>
>> I thought that because the prefix argument i[s] used
>> first (using C-u N myfunc) then it also has to be
>> the first argument in the function declaration.
>>
>
> So you _saw_ my comments on emacs.SE, but it's not
> clear that you _read_ them.
>
> Do yourself a favor. Read this s l o w l y . . .
>
> A "prefix argument" is NOT an argument
> to the function (command). It's NOT.
>
> That is, it _need not be_. It's _not automatically_
> used as any of the function's args. It _could_ be
> passed as one or more of the function's args. There's
> NO necessary or logical connection between the "prefix
> argument" and the function's arguments.
>
> If this isn't yet clear, please read that again. And
> again ... till it's clear.
>
> A prefix argument results from a _user action_. It
> makes a value available when the function's code is
> evaluated. If that value isn't passed as one of the
> function's arguments then the function body (or code
> it invokes...) can obtain it using the global variable
> `current-prefix-arg' - see `C-h v current-prefix-arg'.
>
> And you say:
>
>> because the prefix argument i[s] used first (using
>> C-u N myfunc)
>>
>
> No, it's not "used first". It's _not used at all_
> ... unless the function's code actually, explicitly
> uses it somehow. A user can hit `C-u' all day long
> with zero effect, if the current command doesn't make
> any use of the prefix arg.
>
> How can a command (function) explicitly use the prefix
> arg? (1) in an `interactive' spec, (2) in the body,
> or (3) by passing its value as an argument.
>
> To use the prefix arg in an `interactive' spec you can
> (1) use `P' or `p' in a string argument (any number of
> times), or (2) use `current-prefix-arg' in a list arg
> (any number of times).
>
> To use it in the body explicitly, use variable
> `current-prefix-arg'.
>
> How else can a function use the prefix arg? (3) Pass
> its value as one or more of the function's args.
>
>> Quite complicated thing.
>>
>
> No, not really. I think you've just been misled by
> the name "prefix ARGUMENT".
>
> Nothing to be ashamed of. But now you know - it is
> NOT AN ARGUMENT to the command - not unless (1) the
> command's `interactive' spec provides its value as
> one of the command's arguments OR (2) code that
> invokes the command (function) passes it as one
> of the arguments.
>
> I don't think any of us have been able to help much
> by replying to vague requests for guidance about
> when to use this or that (optional arg, prefix arg,
> `interactive', ...).
>
> And the reason, I think, is because the request is
> misguided (an X-Y question). I'm guessing it's the
> name "prefix argument" that's got you (and perhaps
> others) twisted in a knot by mis-suggesting that it
> represents something that has something to do with
> an argument to the command (function). IT DOESN'T.
>
> Now go outside and have fun. ;-)
> ___
>
> Rereading the Emacs manual about "prefix argument"
> now, I can see where someone might get the wrong
> idea. It tries to present a command to users as
> something more abstract than the Lisp (or C) function
> that implements it. And so it talks about a "prefix
> argument" being provided to the command first, and
> "minibuffer args" possibly being provided afterward.
>
Yes, that was exactly why I had the impression that the list should have
arg storing the prefix argument as the first argument to the function. And that
it has to be optional because a user can decide not to call the interactive function
with C-u.
> IOW, from a user, non-Lisp point of view, you can
> think that you first provide an "argument" to a
> command using `C-u' etc. And then the command might
> prompt you for other info ("arguments") in the
> minibuffer.
>
Yes, I thought that way.
> I think that's what that language is about. But it
> can (apparently) create a disconnect when someone
> then tries to move to a Lisp understanding, with the
> notion of a command as a function (an interactive
> function), which gets passed arguments.
>
Correct. Found it very hard to go from reading to an actual implementation.
I also found no way to get the equivalent of Code Character "P" if the function
includes an arg that stores the prefix within a list
For instance
(defun guling (&optional prefix a b)
"Docstring"
(interactive
(cond
((equal current-prefix-arg 2)
(list
() ; What should one put here???
(read-from-minibuffer "a: ")
(read-from-minibuffer "b: ")))))
(processing))
> ___
>
>
> [
> NOTE: If some code in a command (in the `interactive'
> spec or in the body), or in any code invoked by the
> command, invokes another command interactively, or lets
> a user invoke another command interactively, then the
> use of that other command invocation redefines the
> `current-prefix-arg' value.
>
> And yes, _that_ can get a bit complicated. If you're
> interested in this, and you feel up to it, then dig
> into the Elisp manual, node `Command Loop':
>
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Command-Loop.html
>
> ]
>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-07-08 22:34 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 58+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-07-03 19:16 Making a function than can only be used interactively carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-03 19:28 ` Bruno Barbier
[not found] ` <N64WnlX--3-2@missing-mail-id>
2022-07-03 19:36 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-03 19:53 ` Tassilo Horn
2022-07-03 20:17 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-04 4:51 ` Tassilo Horn
2022-07-05 23:13 ` Emanuel Berg
2022-07-03 20:14 ` Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-03 20:27 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-03 20:51 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-03 21:18 ` Stefan Monnier
2022-07-03 21:29 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-03 22:01 ` Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-03 22:45 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-04 1:13 ` Stefan Monnier
[not found] ` <jwvczelllyq.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org-N65lQ2m----2>
2022-07-04 10:36 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-04 10:55 ` Tassilo Horn
2022-07-04 11:43 ` Christopher Dimech
2022-07-04 13:21 ` Stefan Monnier
2022-07-04 14:08 ` Robert Pluim
2022-07-04 21:40 ` Christopher Dimech
2022-07-05 17:35 ` Jean Louis
2022-07-04 19:17 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-04 19:40 ` Stefan Monnier
2022-07-04 19:50 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-04 20:45 ` Stefan Monnier
2022-07-06 0:07 ` Jean Louis
2022-07-06 20:00 ` Christopher Dimech
2022-07-06 20:29 ` Jean Louis
2022-07-07 11:03 ` Christopher Dimech
2022-07-07 21:06 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-07 21:28 ` Emanuel Berg
2022-07-07 22:14 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-08 3:40 ` Emanuel Berg
2022-07-08 6:08 ` Yuri Khan
2022-07-08 6:30 ` Emanuel Berg
2022-07-08 6:55 ` Yuri Khan
2022-07-08 11:44 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-09 2:05 ` Emanuel Berg
2022-07-10 4:33 ` Emanuel Berg
2022-07-08 12:06 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-08 12:11 ` Christopher Dimech
[not found] ` <N6Sh4jm--3-2@tutanota.com-N6ShCt5----2>
2022-07-08 12:18 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-08 16:14 ` Christopher Dimech
2022-07-08 20:29 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-07-08 21:09 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-08 22:17 ` Drew Adams
2022-07-08 22:34 ` carlmarcos--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor [this message]
2022-07-09 14:53 ` Drew Adams
2022-08-09 2:24 ` Emanuel Berg
2022-07-09 2:06 ` Emanuel Berg
2022-07-08 23:19 ` Emanuel Berg
2022-07-04 20:53 ` Drew Adams
2022-07-05 23:30 ` no difference between interactive and "from Lisp" (was: Re: Making a function than can only be used interactively) Emanuel Berg
2022-07-06 2:28 ` no difference between interactive and "from Lisp" Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-06 3:42 ` Emanuel Berg
2022-07-04 1:06 ` Making a function than can only be used interactively Po Lu
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-07-04 21:07 Christopher Dimech
2022-07-04 21:45 ` Stefan Monnier
2022-07-04 22:05 ` Christopher Dimech
2022-07-04 22:35 ` Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2022-07-05 14:02 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
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