Re: wie kann ich Emacs so einstellen, dass ich drucken kann

Re: wie kann ich Emacs so einstellen, dass ich drucken kann

[Drew Adams]

> If I would try to translate all this stuff,
> I would have forgotten what I actually wanted
> to say.  And it would be hard to understand.

Ain't it the truth!  Translation on the fly is
entirely different from using the language.

And trying to learn a language by translating
as you go is hard, and not necessarily helpful.

Re: wie kann ich Emacs so einstellen, dass ich drucken kann

[Michael Heerdegen]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> And trying to learn a language by translating
> as you go is hard, and not necessarily helpful.

I don't know if I would do anyone a favor when I would try to translate
every Emacs specific term (and there are a lot) literally.  I would try
to describe the terms using my own words, but use those own words to
introduce the original English terms.

That's because I think when you really want to get something out of
Emacs, if you don't want to use it only like Notepad or Nano or those
simplistic editors -- with other words, when you want to use the
commands, the menus, the customize interface and an init file, you have
to know the original terms anyway.

Michael.

Re: wie kann ich Emacs so einstellen, dass ich drucken kann

[tomas]

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On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 03:07:43AM +0100, Michael Heerdegen wrote:
> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
> 
> > And trying to learn a language by translating
> > as you go is hard, and not necessarily helpful.
> 
> I don't know if I would do anyone a favor when I would try to translate
> every Emacs specific term (and there are a lot) literally [...]

I think we aren't aware how full of strange buried metaphors our
languages are... until we try. Some travel well, some less so,
depending on the source and target languages.

"May contain nuts or parts of nuts" as an allergy warning on a
candy package I bought once was translated into Spanish by
disambiguating the nut into the bolt-and-nut side of things.

OTOH, "crane" as a lifting device, which is obviously a metaphor
based on the bird's look with its long beak does travel surprisingly
well whithin Western European languages. Up to the historians to
explain why (my hunch is that craftspeople travelled across Western
Europe at the time this device found widespread use, but I'm not a
historian).

"Literal" translation (the term becomes fuzzier and fuzzier
the closer you get) is bound to get tangled in that mess.

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: wie kann ich Emacs so einstellen, dass ich drucken kann

[Jean Louis]

* Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> [2022-12-18 05:09]:
> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
> 
> > And trying to learn a language by translating
> > as you go is hard, and not necessarily helpful.
> 
> I don't know if I would do anyone a favor when I would try to translate
> every Emacs specific term (and there are a lot) literally.  I would try
> to describe the terms using my own words, but use those own words to
> introduce the original English terms.
> 
> That's because I think when you really want to get something out of
> Emacs, if you don't want to use it only like Notepad or Nano or those
> simplistic editors -- with other words, when you want to use the
> commands, the menus, the customize interface and an init file, you have
> to know the original terms anyway.

IMHO, that is because of habits and environment, you are personally
used to English language and that is how it goes in German
language. 

From personal experience I know that there is tendency in various
languages to use one's own national language. Some countries have the
habit to translate words into one's own language, for example Croatia,
or Hungary, while some countries have rather the habbit to adopt
English words, for example Serbia.

I can't see practically that one "has to know" English words. We had
computer club were teaching numerous people including those from
village who had no clues about English language. All of the computer
terminology we had it translated to local language, and people could
immediately adapt.

If people are faced with their own language, they will learn it in
that language. 

There is nothing simpler but learning words in one's own language.

It cannot be simpler to learn new words in different language.

I was just searching how Italian people call various Emacs terms and I
could find here:
http://www2.ing.unipi.it/~a008149/corsi/so/materiale/Esercitazioni/E2-Emacs.pdf

that they use "Buffer" but for modeline "Barra di stato", instead of
"ENTER" in sense of entering information, document uses "<invio>"
which shows that there is, rather smaller, tendency to translate it to
Italian. 

Judging by TUTORIAL in French the word "Buffer" is translated as
"tampon" and I am not so sure if it is correct, French speaker could
tell it.

Slovenian TUTORIAL, speaks of buffer as »delovno področje« -- which
shows tendency to translate it to local language.

Emacs hrani besedilo vsake datoteke v takoimenovanem »delovnem
področju« (angl. buffer). Ko poiščemo datoteko, Emacs ustvari zanjo
novo delovno področje. Vsa obstoječa delovna področja v Emacsu vidimo
z ukazom:

Some languages have that English and foreign language adoption
tendencies while others tend to have it all localized.

In my personal programming in Emacs, I do not like using exclusively
English as I have to serve people in various languages.

Following construct I use instead of plain English strings:

(rcd-db-words-get "I am sharing this information with you" language)

that means that instead of using plain English string "I am sharing
this information with you" I use the function that is to get the
translated from from the database in specified LANGUAGE, whatever it
may be.

People speak various languages, so for people and lists of people, I
can designate the communication language:

                         Person   "Joe Doe"
                    People type   "Individual Person"
         Communication Language   "Italian"


Now when I am to share Org heading, file, task, music, anything, there
are some pieces of text that are always same like word "Hello" and
many others.

Those pieces of text get semi-automatically translated.

If word is not translated, Emacs will ask me to translate it at the
moment of running the function. Next time it will go smoothly.

That would be my recommended approach for all mainstream Emacs
strings, including Menu strings.

Would the interface be translatable to other languages, Emacs would be
spread more into other countries and tendencies to use English would
be minimized.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

RE: [External] : Re: wie kann ich Emacs so einstellen, dass ich drucken kann

[Drew Adams]

> "May contain nuts or parts of nuts" as an allergy warning on a
> candy package I bought once was translated into Spanish by
> disambiguating the nut into the bolt-and-nut side of things.

WARNING: Emacs and its community may contain nuts or
         parts of nuts.  User discretion is advised.

Re: [External] : Re: wie kann ich Emacs so einstellen, dass ich drucken kann

[tomas]

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On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 03:27:03PM +0000, Drew Adams wrote:
> > "May contain nuts or parts of nuts" as an allergy warning on a
> > candy package I bought once was translated into Spanish by
> > disambiguating the nut into the bolt-and-nut side of things.
> 
> WARNING: Emacs and its community may contain nuts or
>          parts of nuts.  User discretion is advised.

:-D

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: [External] : Re: wie kann ich Emacs so einstellen, dass ich drucken kann

[Emanuel Berg]

Drew Adams wrote:

>> "May contain nuts or parts of nuts" as an allergy warning
>> on a candy package I bought once was translated into
>> Spanish by disambiguating the nut into the bolt-and-nut
>> side of things.
>
> WARNING: Emacs and its community may contain nuts or parts
>          of nuts. User discretion is advised.

But the biggest nuts don't come from American anymore but from
Europe as they try to translate computer-English which they
already understand perfectly ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

RE: [External] : Re: wie kann ich Emacs so einstellen, dass ich drucken kann

[Drew Adams]

> >> "May contain nuts or parts of nuts" as an allergy warning
> >> on a candy package I bought once was translated into
> >> Spanish by disambiguating the nut into the bolt-and-nut
> >> side of things.
> >
> > WARNING: Emacs and its community may contain nuts or parts
> >          of nuts. User discretion is advised.
> 
> But the biggest nuts don't come from American anymore but from
> Europe as they try to translate computer-English which they
> already understand perfectly ...

Potency, including for nuts, isn't measured only in size. ;-)