Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Stefan Monnier]

>        (insert (format "<p>To install this package, run in Emacs:</p>
> -                       <pre>M-x <span class=\"kw\">package-install</span> RET <span class=\"kw\">%s</span> RET</pre>"
> +                       <pre>M-x <span class=\"kw\">list-packages</span> RET</pre>
> +                       <p>Then, find <span class=\"kw\">%s</span> in the list, click on the link, and click <pre>Install</pre>.</p>"
>                        name))
>        (let* ((readme-content (elpaa--get-README pkg-spec srcdir))
>               (readme-text plain-readme)

Hmm, I don't like this change.
IMO, we should make this part of the page *smaller* rather than bigger.

Also, this reminds me of those horrible PDFs we have t work giving steps
to go through with their horrendous web-application, which to me scream
"this web-application is broken, URLs were invented so you don't need
those steps".

So if we want in general to recommend users use `list-packages` rather
than `package-install`, let's just put something like:

    To install this from Emacs, use `M-x list-packages RET`

But this should be motivated by a preference, not by a bug (which we
should fix instead), and not by something that only affects a tiny
minority of packages (otherwise, change the above code so it only
affects those very few packages).


        Stefan

Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> Hmm, I don't like this change.
> IMO, we should make this part of the page *smaller* rather than bigger.
>...
> So if we want in general to recommend users use `list-packages` rather
> than `package-install`, let's just put something like:
>
>     To install this from Emacs, use `M-x list-packages RET`

This might also work.

> But this should be motivated by a preference, not by a bug (which we
> should fix instead)

There is no bug in Emacs here. Just on ELPA page providing instructions
that are not working for :core packages.

> .... , and not by something that only affects a tiny
> minority of packages (otherwise, change the above code so it only
> affects those very few packages).

I could also put the `list-packages' suggestion behind check if the
package is :core or not.

P.S. Shouldn't this discussion be done in the original bug report thread?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
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bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

>> But this should be motivated by a preference, not by a bug (which we
>> should fix instead)
> There is no bug in Emacs here. Just on ELPA page providing instructions
> that are not working for :core packages.

I still think there's a bug in there because the behavior may not be
what the user expects.  Maybe `package-install` should be improved so
that, instead of doing nothing it tells or prompts the user about the
possibility to upgrade the package (presumably only do it when called interactively).

>> .... , and not by something that only affects a tiny
>> minority of packages (otherwise, change the above code so it only
>> affects those very few packages).
> I could also put the `list-packages' suggestion behind check if the
> package is :core or not.

That would be best.  Even better would be to provide instructions we
don't have to be ashamed of.  E.g. replace `package-install` with
`package-upgrade` for packages that are in-core.


        Stefan

bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> There is no bug in Emacs here. Just on ELPA page providing instructions
>> that are not working for :core packages.
>
> I still think there's a bug in there because the behavior may not be
> what the user expects.  Maybe `package-install` should be improved so
> that, instead of doing nothing it tells or prompts the user about the
> possibility to upgrade the package (presumably only do it when called interactively).

AFAIU, one of the problems is that already installed packages do not
even show up in the completion and one cannot enter
M-x package-install <RET> org <RET>. The last <RET> will only trigger
completion window where org is not listed at all.

But wasn't this discussed in the past? There was quite a lengthy
discussion about this in the past (I did not quite follow it until the
end).

>> I could also put the `list-packages' suggestion behind check if the
>> package is :core or not.
>
> That would be best.  Even better would be to provide instructions we
> don't have to be ashamed of.  E.g. replace `package-install` with
> `package-upgrade` for packages that are in-core.

package-upgrade is not available in any of the released Emacs versions.
Do note that some people still use ELPA to install packages for Emacs
26.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
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bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

>>> There is no bug in Emacs here. Just on ELPA page providing instructions
>>> that are not working for :core packages.
>>
>> I still think there's a bug in there because the behavior may not be
>> what the user expects.  Maybe `package-install` should be improved so
>> that, instead of doing nothing it tells or prompts the user about the
>> possibility to upgrade the package (presumably only do it when called interactively).
>
> AFAIU, one of the problems is that already installed packages do not
> even show up in the completion and one cannot enter
> M-x package-install <RET> org <RET>. The last <RET> will only trigger
> completion window where org is not listed at all.
>
> But wasn't this discussed in the past? There was quite a lengthy
> discussion about this in the past (I did not quite follow it until the
> end).

Indeed, but I think the discussion did not take a step back to think
about what the UI should be in a more general sense (IIRC it was
focused on "what should we do right now for `emacs-29`").

>>> I could also put the `list-packages' suggestion behind check if the
>>> package is :core or not.
>> That would be best.  Even better would be to provide instructions we
>> don't have to be ashamed of.  E.g. replace `package-install` with
>> `package-upgrade` for packages that are in-core.
> package-upgrade is not available in any of the released Emacs versions.
> Do note that some people still use ELPA to install packages for Emacs
> 26.

But for those, the instructions have been wrong for years anyway, so I'm
not too worried :-)


        Stefan

bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> package-upgrade is not available in any of the released Emacs versions.
>> Do note that some people still use ELPA to install packages for Emacs
>> 26.
>
> But for those, the instructions have been wrong for years anyway, so I'm
> not too worried :-)

Last time I checked, M-x package-install worked for me in Emacs 26 for
non-core packages. Same for M-x package-list, except that in Emacs 26
one may also need to run M-x package-refresh-contents.

-- 
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Org mode contributor,
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bug#63800: M-x package-install, upgrading, and dealing with :core packages (was: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800))

[Ihor Radchenko]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> AFAIU, one of the problems is that already installed packages do not
>> even show up in the completion and one cannot enter
>> M-x package-install <RET> org <RET>. The last <RET> will only trigger
>> completion window where org is not listed at all.
>>
>> But wasn't this discussed in the past? There was quite a lengthy
>> discussion about this in the past (I did not quite follow it until the
>> end).
>
> Indeed, but I think the discussion did not take a step back to think
> about what the UI should be in a more general sense (IIRC it was
> focused on "what should we do right now for `emacs-29`").

Then, M-x package-install may (1) Remove REQUIRE-MATCH from its
interactive `completing-read' call. (2) If the package is built-in and
:core on ELPA, ask to run package upgrade (y/n) - something like
"Package foo is already installed. New version is available on ELPA. Upgrade? (y/n)"
(3) Fall back to user-error that package is not found otherwise.

-- 
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Org mode contributor,
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Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
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bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko [2023-07-13 13:35:53] wrote:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>>> There is no bug in Emacs here. Just on ELPA page providing instructions
>>> that are not working for :core packages.
>>
>> I still think there's a bug in there because the behavior may not be
>> what the user expects.  Maybe `package-install` should be improved so
>> that, instead of doing nothing it tells or prompts the user about the
>> possibility to upgrade the package (presumably only do it when called interactively).
>
> AFAIU, one of the problems is that already installed packages do not
> even show up in the completion and one cannot enter
> M-x package-install <RET> org <RET>. The last <RET> will only trigger
> completion window where org is not listed at all.
>
> But wasn't this discussed in the past? There was quite a lengthy
> discussion about this in the past (I did not quite follow it until the
> end).
>
>>> I could also put the `list-packages' suggestion behind check if the
>>> package is :core or not.
>>
>> That would be best.  Even better would be to provide instructions we
>> don't have to be ashamed of.  E.g. replace `package-install` with
>> `package-upgrade` for packages that are in-core.
>
> package-upgrade is not available in any of the released Emacs versions.
> Do note that some people still use ELPA to install packages for Emacs
> 26.

How 'bout simply:

diff --git a/elpa-admin.el b/elpa-admin.el
index 2c2d2aeab7..3d2bdcc2ef 100644
--- a/elpa-admin.el
+++ b/elpa-admin.el
@@ -1863,10 +1863,7 @@ arbitrary code."
       (insert (format "<dt>Badge</dt><dd><img src=\"%s.svg\"/></dd>\n" (elpaa--html-quote name)))
       (elpaa--html-insert-docs pkg-spec)
       (insert "</dl>")
-      (insert (format "<p>To install this package, run in Emacs:</p>
-                       <pre>M-x <span class=\"kw\">list-packages</span> RET</pre>
-                       <p>Then, find <span class=\"kw\">%s</span> in the list, click on the link, and click <pre>Install</pre>.</p>"
-                      name))
+      (insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>package-install</code> or <code>list-packages</code>.</p>")
       (let* ((readme-content (elpaa--get-README pkg-spec srcdir))
              (readme-text plain-readme)
              (readme-html (elpaa--section-to-html readme-content))


-- Stefan

bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> How 'bout simply:
>
> +      (insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>package-install</code> or <code>list-packages</code>.</p>")

Still not ideal for core packages (package-install is currently useless
for them).
Maybe something like

(if (elpaa--spec-get pkg-spec :core)
  (insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>list-packages</code>.</p>")
(insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>package-install</code> or <code>list-packages</code>.</p>"))

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

>>> package-upgrade is not available in any of the released Emacs
>>> versions.  Do note that some people still use ELPA to install
>>> packages for Emacs 26.
>> But for those, the instructions have been wrong for years anyway, so I'm
>> not too worried :-)
> Last time I checked, M-x package-install worked for me in Emacs 26 for
> non-core packages.

And still does and so we can keep using it for non-core packages.
This discussion is only relevant for core packages.
AFAIK `package-install` has never been able to upgrade a core package,
right, so the instructions have been wrong for years in this regard.


        Stefan

bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>>> package-upgrade is not available in any of the released Emacs
>>>> versions.  Do note that some people still use ELPA to install
>>>> packages for Emacs 26.
>>> But for those, the instructions have been wrong for years anyway, so I'm
>>> not too worried :-)
>> Last time I checked, M-x package-install worked for me in Emacs 26 for
>> non-core packages.
>
> And still does and so we can keep using it for non-core packages.
> This discussion is only relevant for core packages.
> AFAIK `package-install` has never been able to upgrade a core package,
> right, so the instructions have been wrong for years in this regard.

We agree here.

But then I read your first message as if keeping things broken is not a
big deal? I feel confused.

-- 
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Org mode contributor,
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Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 13/07/2023 15:51, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> But this should be motivated by a preference, not by a bug (which we
> should fix instead)

The bug was in the instructions: for every package we say that they can 
install it by using 'M-x package-install'.

But there is no sense to do that for built-in packages: they are already 
installed, so package-install predictably says so instead of upgrading 
to an external version.

Emacs 29 now has a user option to change the latter behavior (which IMHO 
is not the right direction to solve this), but even so, it's off by 
default, and the ELPA website needs to have instructions which will work 
in the previous versions of Emacs.

Basically, see the previous discussions.

Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Philip Kaludercic]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>> Hmm, I don't like this change.
>> IMO, we should make this part of the page *smaller* rather than bigger.
>>...
>> So if we want in general to recommend users use `list-packages` rather
>> than `package-install`, let's just put something like:
>>
>>     To install this from Emacs, use `M-x list-packages RET`

At which point I question the point of this advice in the first place.

> This might also work.
>
>> But this should be motivated by a preference, not by a bug (which we
>> should fix instead)
>
> There is no bug in Emacs here. Just on ELPA page providing instructions
> that are not working for :core packages.

I guess that is what is meant by "bug" here, but as the discussion a
while ago demonstrated, it is not obvious if we want to regard switching
from built-in packages to external packages as the same thing as
installing an external package.

>> .... , and not by something that only affects a tiny
>> minority of packages (otherwise, change the above code so it only
>> affects those very few packages).
>
> I could also put the `list-packages' suggestion behind check if the
> package is :core or not.
>
> P.S. Shouldn't this discussion be done in the original bug report thread?

Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Stefan Monnier]

> I guess that is what is meant by "bug" here, but as the discussion a
> while ago demonstrated, it is not obvious if we want to regard switching
> from built-in packages to external packages as the same thing as
> installing an external package.

But when `package-install` is used interactively, we can ask the users
what they meant.


        Stefan

bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>> How 'bout simply:
>>
>> +      (insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>package-install</code> or <code>list-packages</code>.</p>")
>
> Still not ideal for core packages (package-install is currently useless
> for them).
> Maybe something like
>
> (if (elpaa--spec-get pkg-spec :core)
>   (insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>list-packages</code>.</p>")
> (insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>package-install</code> or <code>list-packages</code>.</p>"))

Bump!
There is an awkward situation now with
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/log/?h=elpa-admin
containing my commit, but ELPA website not using it.

Should I push a commit as in the above suggestion?

-- 
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Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
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bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

> Bump!
> There is an awkward situation now with
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/log/?h=elpa-admin
> containing my commit, but ELPA website not using it.
>
> Should I push a commit as in the above suggestion?

Oh yes, please (and then remind me to update the elpa.gnu.git scripts).


        Stefan

bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> Bump!
>> There is an awkward situation now with
>> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/log/?h=elpa-admin
>> containing my commit, but ELPA website not using it.
>>
>> Should I push a commit as in the above suggestion?
>
> Oh yes, please (and then remind me to update the elpa.gnu.git scripts).

Done.
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/commit/?h=elpa-admin&id=0dad7872831e49e5338d888ebffe525cf7f04e13

-- 
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Org mode contributor,
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Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
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bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

>> Oh yes, please (and then remind me to update the elpa.gnu.git scripts).
>
> Done.
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/commit/?h=elpa-admin&id=0dad7872831e49e5338d888ebffe525cf7f04e13

OK,, thanks.  elpa.gnu.org is now updated, so HTML pages should start
using the new wording (but only for those packages that get a new
tarball).


        Stefan

bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>> Oh yes, please (and then remind me to update the elpa.gnu.git scripts).
>>
>> Done.
>> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/commit/?h=elpa-admin&id=0dad7872831e49e5338d888ebffe525cf7f04e13
>
> OK,, thanks.  elpa.gnu.org is now updated, so HTML pages should start
> using the new wording (but only for those packages that get a new
> tarball).

I can see it working now, but it looks like Org mode ELPA definition is
not setting :core. However, it is not clear if it should.

AFAIU, with :core, the build happens from Emacs git repo, which works
for packages developed in Emacs repo, but not for packages that are only
_distributed_ with Emacs.

I am wondering if we should introduce a special keyword for such packages.

-- 
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Org mode contributor,
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bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> AFAIU, with :core, the build happens from Emacs git repo, which works
> for packages developed in Emacs repo, but not for packages that are only
> _distributed_ with Emacs.
>
> I am wondering if we should introduce a special keyword for such packages.

Ping!

-- 
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bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

>>>> Oh yes, please (and then remind me to update the elpa.gnu.git scripts).
>>> Done.
>>> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/commit/?h=elpa-admin&id=0dad7872831e49e5338d888ebffe525cf7f04e13
>>
>> OK,, thanks.  elpa.gnu.org is now updated, so HTML pages should start
>> using the new wording (but only for those packages that get a new
>> tarball).
>
> I can see it working now, but it looks like Org mode ELPA definition is
> not setting :core. However, it is not clear if it should.
>
> AFAIU, with :core, the build happens from Emacs git repo, which works
> for packages developed in Emacs repo, but not for packages that are only
> _distributed_ with Emacs.
>
> I am wondering if we should introduce a special keyword for such packages.

AFAIK "such packages" is a singleton set :-)

We could fix that, but it doesn't seem urgent.
After all, I see at http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/org.html that we say:

    To install this package from Emacs, use package-install or
    list-packages.
    
    Full description
    
    [...]
    
    1. Install Org
    
    [...]
    
    To install a more recent version, please do it from GNU ELPA by
    running this command: M-x package-install RET org RET
    
    [...]

so even Org's own doc hasn't been fixed yet :-)


        Stefan

bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> I am wondering if we should introduce a special keyword for such packages.
>
> AFAIK "such packages" is a singleton set :-)

Maybe also clojure-mode in future :)

> We could fix that, but it doesn't seem urgent.
> After all, I see at http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/org.html that we say:
> ...
>     1. Install Org
>     
>     [...]
>     
>     To install a more recent version, please do it from GNU ELPA by
>     running this command: M-x package-install RET org RET
>     
>     [...]
>
> so even Org's own doc hasn't been fixed yet :-)

That's because I scheduled this fix after this bug is resolved.
Now, Org's README is updated.
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/commit/?id=11c626b52

-- 
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Org mode contributor,
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Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
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