From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Gtk scrollbar: thumb too short
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 04:19:18 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <E190eOs-0001w4-00@fencepost.gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <1049218005.16657.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Owen Taylor on 01 Apr 2003 12:26:45 -0500)
Your model is not simple either - you are just making it sound simple
by neglecting the fact that there is some minimum size that you
can make the scrollbar thumb.
The thumb size is quantized because the display is made of pixels.
Whatever model we use for the scroll bar will be distorted a little by
quantization. This doesn't really affect any of the arguments.
In fact, your doesn't work at all unless there is a difference between:
- The minimum size the scrollbar thumb can under normal circumstances
This minimum is irrelevant except for very large files. For instance,
etc/NEWS is almost half a meg, and yet its thumb is several pixels
high. A file would have to be several meg before its thumb would have
the minimum possible height.
However, quantization does cause problems. You cannot use mouse-2 to
scroll were you will. In fact, a single pixel motion of the thumb in
etc/NEWS corresponds to more than one screenful. If you scroll
through the file using mouse-2, there are parts you will not even see.
That is true regardless of how the scroll bar handles overscrolling.
However, it does have a relationship with the issue of overscrolling.
I compiled with some sort of athena widgets, and the behavior I get
for overscrolling is the one that you want. If I slide the thumb all
the way to the bottom, my screen is blank. But if I carefully
position the thumb one pixel up from the bottom, the last line is off
the bottom of the screen. There is no place to put the thumb which
makes the end of the text visible.
With the behavior I am recommending, sliding the thumb to the bottom
would reliably make the last screenful of text visible.
Many messages ago, you said:
My suggestion is to display a thumb that rises from the bottom of the
scroll bar, but is shorter than normal, as if the bottom of the thumb
were hidden beyond the end of the scroll bar. Others may think
of a better way to indicate this situation.
I took that to understand that you wanted the bevelling drawn as
if the scrollbar thumb was actually extending past the bottom
of the scrollbar trough.
Actually I wasn't thinking about that question. I don't know what GTK
scrollbars look like, so I did not know they have beveling. Now that
you mention it, I think it would be desirable to omit the bottom
beveling, to indicate that the thumb virtually extends beyond the end
of the trough.
However, I am not saying that it should actually draw the thumb in the
space beyond the end of the trough. I am saying that if it happens to
do that, it is ok.
For GTK+, I really want to preserve the idea that the scrollbar
consists of a thumb of some length that can be positioned between
two extremes - at the top of the trough and at the bottom of the
trough. For it to change length while dragging is a bit peculiar.
For it to go past the ends of the trough, either literally or
by shrinking as it is pushed against the end is completely outside
that model.
When an application's internal concepts don't fit that model,
trying to force it to fit does not help.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2003-04-02 9:19 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 143+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2003-03-25 14:51 Gtk scrollbar: thumb too short Kai Großjohann
2003-03-25 18:54 ` Jan D.
2003-03-25 19:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-03-26 18:26 ` Jan D.
2003-03-26 19:07 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-03-27 3:29 ` Richard Stallman
2003-03-27 14:51 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-03-27 15:48 ` Owen Taylor
2003-03-27 16:30 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-03-27 21:07 ` Owen Taylor
2003-03-27 21:41 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-03-27 21:42 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-27 21:41 ` Owen Taylor
2003-03-27 22:18 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-27 22:46 ` Jody Goldberg
2003-03-28 2:15 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-28 4:28 ` Owen Taylor
2003-03-28 6:07 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-29 18:38 ` Richard Stallman
2003-03-28 13:35 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-03-28 13:55 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-27 16:50 ` Andreas Schwab
2003-03-27 18:27 ` Jan D.
2003-03-27 20:54 ` Owen Taylor
2003-03-28 1:48 ` Miles Bader
2003-03-28 1:42 ` Miles Bader
2003-03-28 1:51 ` Miles Bader
2003-03-28 15:04 ` Kim F. Storm
[not found] ` <m21y0rruj4.fsf@primate.xs4all.nl>
2003-03-28 23:57 ` Kim F. Storm
[not found] ` <m2wuijqdu3.fsf@primate.xs4all.nl>
2003-03-29 1:26 ` Kim F. Storm
2003-03-31 7:52 ` Miles Bader
2003-03-31 11:04 ` Kim F. Storm
2003-03-28 12:43 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-03-28 13:34 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-28 15:11 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-03-28 15:50 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-28 13:38 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-03-28 16:18 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-03-28 16:49 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-03-29 18:39 ` Richard Stallman
2003-03-29 18:43 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-03-28 15:20 ` Richard Stallman
2003-03-28 15:44 ` Owen Taylor
2003-03-28 18:25 ` Jan D.
2003-03-27 18:41 ` Jan D.
2003-03-28 15:21 ` Richard Stallman
2003-03-28 17:27 ` Owen Taylor
2003-03-30 19:24 ` Richard Stallman
2003-03-31 18:12 ` Owen Taylor
2003-03-31 22:06 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-31 22:16 ` Owen Taylor
2003-03-31 22:27 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-31 23:29 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-31 22:23 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-04-01 0:28 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-01 17:48 ` Owen Taylor
2003-04-02 1:39 ` Miles Bader
2003-04-02 2:30 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-01 9:38 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-01 17:26 ` Owen Taylor
2003-04-02 1:33 ` Miles Bader
2003-04-02 3:30 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-02 3:55 ` Miles Bader
2003-04-02 4:29 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-02 4:42 ` Miles Bader
2003-04-02 11:07 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-04-02 13:52 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-02 13:11 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-04-02 14:42 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-02 14:03 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-04-03 10:38 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-07 15:35 ` Owen Taylor
2003-04-07 16:57 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-04-07 18:30 ` Owen Taylor
2003-04-07 18:38 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-04-07 18:57 ` Owen Taylor
2003-04-07 19:02 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-04-07 19:21 ` Owen Taylor
2003-04-07 19:30 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-04-08 2:30 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-08 14:56 ` Owen Taylor
2003-04-08 23:36 ` Miles Bader
2003-04-09 1:58 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-09 14:46 ` Owen Taylor
2003-04-10 6:22 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-10 6:48 ` Miles Bader
2003-04-11 8:51 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-10 17:37 ` Jan D.
2003-04-11 8:51 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-11 12:26 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-11 12:53 ` Jan D.
2003-04-11 13:08 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-11 14:02 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-04-11 14:28 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-04-11 15:33 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-04-12 3:02 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-12 8:56 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-04-12 11:58 ` Miles Bader
2003-04-12 14:56 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-12 14:58 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-04-13 11:22 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-15 1:24 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-15 1:31 ` Miles Bader
2003-04-15 1:42 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-15 7:18 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-04-15 13:01 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-16 4:39 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-17 3:59 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-17 4:09 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-11 15:23 ` Andreas Schwab
2003-04-11 16:30 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-04-11 16:55 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-04-11 20:42 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-04-11 21:33 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-04-12 0:05 ` Miles Bader
2003-04-12 0:47 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-12 2:11 ` Miles Bader
2003-04-11 19:09 ` NEWS and invisible text Stefan Monnier
2003-04-14 23:09 ` Kevin Rodgers
2003-04-21 0:59 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-11 16:36 ` Gtk scrollbar: thumb too short Robert J. Chassell
2003-04-11 17:07 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-04-11 17:46 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-11 21:13 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-04-12 17:07 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-11 13:12 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-04-11 16:13 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-04-12 17:07 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-10 17:33 ` Jan D.
2003-04-02 12:56 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-04-02 14:07 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-04-03 1:34 ` Miles Bader
2003-04-03 15:35 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-04-02 9:19 ` Richard Stallman [this message]
2003-03-28 18:12 ` Jan D.
2003-03-28 22:25 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-03-28 22:35 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-03-29 17:06 ` Jan D.
2003-03-26 16:47 ` Richard Stallman
2003-03-26 18:32 ` Jan D.
2003-03-27 19:04 ` Richard Stallman
2003-04-01 19:29 ` Kai Großjohann
[not found] <200303271914.h2RJEdbL026474@stubby.bodenonline.com>
[not found] ` <3E834774.6080604@swipnet.se>
[not found] ` <200303271904.h2RJ48b0029268@rum.cs.yale.edu>
2003-03-27 23:23 ` Stefan Monnier
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