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From: chad <yandros@gmail.com>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
Cc: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>,
	EMACS development team <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,
	nicola.manca85@gmail.com, "Alfred M. Szmidt" <ams@gnu.org>,
	Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com>,
	Jack Kamm <jackkamm@gmail.com>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
	Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Subject: Re: A new user perspective about "Changes for emacs 28"
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 15:13:58 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAO2hHWbmK7uS-xiKJHJCAHh1HncdcH=wR9UpBFfLycogBFhAEw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <fd0c3472-f87e-d167-2b03-7892a36176aa@yandex.ru>

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Starting point for a concrete proposal:
* Rename undo in simple.el to something descriptive.
** Perhaps undo-sequence or undo-branching?
* Create an alias or dispatcher undo that calls the renamed simple.el
undo by default.
* Create a customize option (or similar) to allow the user to choose
between the current simple.el undo method, the "undo/redo-only" method
bindings, and perhaps undo-tree.
* Change the default action of C-z, at least in gui frames, to call the
above undo rather than suspend frame.
** Also add a binding for C-Z (aka C-S-z) to call redo-only. I'm unsure if
this should be bound to something else if the "simple.el undo" method is
chosen, or if an alternative binding for C-Z would be better there.
* Add a user option to revert this change for C-z. I'm unclear if this is
better implemented by changing the binding or by adding it as an option to
the dispatcher concept above, perhaps something like
"undo-or-suspend-frame".

Reasoning:
I believe that people using emacs in a gui context tend to have a
system-wide method for switching between active windows/applications, and
they don't use the C-z binding for it. This is certainly true of the
people I see today who don't use emacs, and was true of the new and
non-new, non-expert emacs users I used to see often. It was usually true of
expert emacs users that I knew personally that they rebound C-z.
This gets us an intuitive keybinding for gui computer users of various
types that doesn't hide their window (when I used to work in user support
way back when, we *frequently* found users surprised by "my emacs
disappeared"), and it connects a very common keybinding (muscle memory for
a vast body of users) to a familiar/powerful decision point for emacs.
The cost is the loss of suspend-frame on C-z, which seems most likely to be
an issue for either people who are very capable of reverting it, and for
people who are very used to the control-z behavior inside a tty. I have
personally spent a *lot* of time using emacs in tty-only environments with
C-z rebound, and preferred it that way. Anecdotally, people who spend a lot
of time in emacs inside screen or tmux prefer to rebind C-z away from
suspend, but of course tastes vary.

I'm sure there are issues with this, even setting aside the very strong
small-c-conservatism of long-time emacs users on this list; what are they?

Thanks,
~Chad

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  reply	other threads:[~2020-09-13 22:13 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 95+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-09-07 16:45 A new user perspective about "Changes for emacs 28" Nicola Manca
2020-09-07 18:08 ` Ergus
     [not found]   ` <86d02x2yg0.fsf@gmail.com>
2020-09-07 19:59     ` about fido-mode Ergus
2020-09-07 20:44       ` andrés ramírez
2020-09-07 21:09         ` Ergus
2020-09-07 21:18           ` andrés ramírez
     [not found]     ` <87mu21wd3f.fsf@gmail.com>
     [not found]       ` <20200907214104.kapyivsh5y62wcl5@Ergus>
     [not found]         ` <865z8p2qay.fsf@gmail.com>
2020-09-08  8:08           ` Ergus
2020-09-08  9:06             ` andrés ramírez
2020-09-08  9:26               ` Ergus
2020-09-08 16:14                 ` andrés ramírez
2020-09-08 16:25                   ` Ergus
2020-09-09  2:44                     ` andrés ramírez
2020-09-07 20:05   ` A new user perspective about "Changes for emacs 28" Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-07 20:34     ` Drew Adams
2020-09-07 20:46       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-07 21:11         ` Drew Adams
2020-09-07 21:15           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-07 21:39             ` Drew Adams
2020-09-07 21:50               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-08  2:54             ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-08 11:10               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-08  6:18         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-09-08 11:07           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-08 14:20           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-08 14:54             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-09-08 15:14               ` Amin Bandali
2020-09-08 15:53                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-09-08 16:18                   ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-08 16:28                     ` Ergus
2020-09-08 15:27               ` Óscar Fuentes
2020-09-08 15:36                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-08 15:27               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-08 16:13                 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-08 16:23                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-08 18:00                     ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-09  3:44               ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-09 19:01                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-09-09 19:07                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-09 21:43                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-08 15:02             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-08 15:28               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-08 21:31                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-10  7:23                   ` Jack Kamm
2020-09-10 14:52                     ` Howard Melman
2020-09-10 15:01                       ` Jack Kamm
2020-09-10 16:43                         ` Vasilij Schneidermann
2020-09-09  5:03                 ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-09  8:35                   ` Ergus
2020-09-09  8:41                     ` tomas
2020-09-09 10:00                       ` Ergus
2020-09-09 10:36                         ` tomas
2020-09-09 13:49                           ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-09 14:36                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-09 15:54                             ` tomas
2020-09-10  2:38                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10 12:10                             ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-11  4:16                               ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-09 18:39                         ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-10 12:28                           ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-09-09 13:17                     ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-10  2:40                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11 10:29                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-11 11:29                     ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-11 11:40                       ` Ergus
2020-09-11 14:53                         ` Jack Kamm
2020-09-11 15:03                           ` Ergus
2020-09-11 15:16                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 20:51                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-12 13:02                             ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-12 13:09                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 22:13                                 ` chad [this message]
2020-09-13 22:44                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-15  4:34                                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-15  6:54                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-09-11 12:27                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-11 15:08                         ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-11 20:35                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-11 13:51                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-11 14:32                         ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-11 14:59                           ` Jack Kamm
2020-09-12 12:55                           ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-11 13:15                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-09-11 14:37                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-08 16:37     ` Custom Et Al: Build-Up The Underlying Platform was " T.V Raman
2020-09-08 20:40       ` Daniel Martín
2020-09-09  3:51         ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-09  8:48           ` Tim Cross
2020-09-09 15:53             ` Drew Adams
2020-09-09 16:36               ` Ergus
2020-09-09 16:41                 ` T.V Raman
2020-09-09 17:05                   ` Ergus
2020-09-09 14:32           ` T.V Raman
2020-09-09 18:44             ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-11  4:11             ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-07 18:16 ` Ergus

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