bug archiving policy

bug archiving policy

[Boruch Baum]

I've been having an awful time trying to update a simple bugfix patch to
a recent bug report[1]. Although the bug report was initially submitted
23 July 2020, it has since been summarily closed, *archived* (08
October), unarchived upon my protest (in order to submit the original
patch (10 October), never re-opened, and *archived* a second time (08
November). On 17 November, I tried to have the bug unarchived a second
time in order to make a small modification to the patch[2], which led
eventually to a very constructive discussion, but the bug report was
never unarchived, and none of the other constructive comments in the
thread seem to have been taken up.

At this point, I'm still primarily asking for the specific bug to be
unarchived so the update can be posted, but I also want to bring the
particular incident to the members of this list for review, and also to
bring to attention of the members of this list the constructive comments
that eventually ensued in the prior discussion thread[2].

It shouldn't be so hard to make a five-byte alteration to a patch.

I'm not a subscriber to the list, so I need to be cc'ed to ensure I
remain in the loop in a timely fashion; otherwise, I can check the
online devel-list history[3].

[1] https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=42484
[2] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2020-11/msg00365.html
[3] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/

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Re: bug archiving policy

[Stefan Kangas]

(Cc to Bastien.)

Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com> writes:

> At this point, I'm still primarily asking for the specific bug to be
> unarchived so the update can be posted, but I also want to bring the
> particular incident to the members of this list for review, and also to
> bring to attention of the members of this list the constructive comments
> that eventually ensued in the prior discussion thread[2].

Although the org-mode maintainers do read emacs-devel and bug-gnu-emacs
with some frequency, most subscribers are not org-mode experts.

I would therefore recommend sending org-mode patches directly to the
org-mode mailing list: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org.  This makes sure it is
seen by the competent and helpful org-mode hackers.  In most cases, I
don't think there is any need to also open a bug against Emacs.

Re: bug archiving policy

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 04:26:42 -0500
> From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com>
> 
> At this point, I'm still primarily asking for the specific bug to be
> unarchived so the update can be posted

You can unarchive it yourself, as you apparently did in October.  (If
you already tried and that failed, please tell the details.)

Re: bug archiving policy

[Boruch Baum]

On 2020-12-06 03:52, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> (Cc to Bastien.)
>
> Although the org-mode maintainers do read emacs-devel and bug-gnu-emacs
> with some frequency, most subscribers are not org-mode experts.
>
> I would therefore recommend sending org-mode patches directly to the
> org-mode mailing list: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org.  This makes sure it is
> seen by the competent and helpful org-mode hackers.  In most cases, I
> don't think there is any need to also open a bug against Emacs.

Your comments were points of discussion in the org-mode thread that I
referenced. See there, but in part, that list requires one to first
subscribe and become a member in order to post to the list, which is a
barrier to entry for bug reporters not committed to be developers or
insiders, and the method is inconsistent with other parts of emacs-core
and thus unexpected for users. The thread also addressed issues of
maintainabilty, bug-tracking, and other useful and constructive
comments. Do see there.

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Re: bug archiving policy

[Jean Louis]

* Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> [2020-12-06 12:54]:
> (Cc to Bastien.)
> 
> Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com> writes:
> 
> > At this point, I'm still primarily asking for the specific bug to be
> > unarchived so the update can be posted, but I also want to bring the
> > particular incident to the members of this list for review, and also to
> > bring to attention of the members of this list the constructive comments
> > that eventually ensued in the prior discussion thread[2].
> 
> Although the org-mode maintainers do read emacs-devel and bug-gnu-emacs
> with some frequency, most subscribers are not org-mode experts.
> 
> I would therefore recommend sending org-mode patches directly to the
> org-mode mailing list: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org.  This makes sure it is
> seen by the competent and helpful org-mode hackers.  In most cases, I
> don't think there is any need to also open a bug against Emacs.

There is main Emacs bug tracking system and such shall accept
logically bugs that also relate to Org mode. To avoid
misunderstandings for people reading advises, it is maybe more useful
to say "while Org mode is part of Emacs there is also separate Org bug
tracking mailing list" and then to advise users there in gentle
manner. This is because not everybody can find that information
easily and maintainers will say that maybe Org is not part of Emacs
while it is part of Emacs thus confusing mostly new users.

We better not say: "This is not Emacs bug", rather "Org related bugs
are better handled on Org mailing list" like you said it already.

Re: bug archiving policy

[Boruch Baum]

On 2020-12-06 11:56, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 04:26:42 -0500
> > From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com>
> >
> > At this point, I'm still primarily asking for the specific bug to be
> > unarchived so the update can be posted
>
> You can unarchive it yourself, as you apparently did in October.

I did not do so in October, and have no idea how I could do so myself.
Someone named Bastien did so, after I went through the overhead hassle
of subscribing to the org-mailing list temporarily.

>  (If you already tried and that failed, please tell the details.)

How could I do that?

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Re: bug archiving policy

[Boruch Baum]

On 2020-12-06 11:56, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 04:26:42 -0500
> > From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com>
> >
> > At this point, I'm still primarily asking for the specific bug to be
> > unarchived so the update can be posted

It's not lost on me that both your response and Stephen's skirt my
question about bug archiving policy...

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Re: bug archiving policy

[Jean Louis]

* Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com> [2020-12-06 13:16]:
> On 2020-12-06 03:52, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> > (Cc to Bastien.)
> >
> > Although the org-mode maintainers do read emacs-devel and bug-gnu-emacs
> > with some frequency, most subscribers are not org-mode experts.
> >
> > I would therefore recommend sending org-mode patches directly to the
> > org-mode mailing list: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org.  This makes sure it is
> > seen by the competent and helpful org-mode hackers.  In most cases, I
> > don't think there is any need to also open a bug against Emacs.
> 
> Your comments were points of discussion in the org-mode thread that I
> referenced. See there, but in part, that list requires one to first
> subscribe and become a member in order to post to the list, which is a
> barrier to entry for bug reporters not committed to be developers or
> insiders, and the method is inconsistent with other parts of emacs-core
> and thus unexpected for users. The thread also addressed issues of
> maintainabilty, bug-tracking, and other useful and constructive
> comments. Do see there.

I can fully relate to that problem and in last months we have seen few
users having similar issue.

Issue related to specific bug should be, in my opinion, be handled
automatically by the mailing list software. I think it is handled so,
but I am not sure. Bug submitter should always get the update to the
bug regardless if other people put such in the message Cc: carbon copy
field (where is the carbon?)

I am not sure if Org mailing list is setup that way. But you may try
with {M-x org-submit-bug-report RET} which also has its menu item
under Org menu.

You may also open up this issue straight in that mailing list.

Question is if such bug would be reported back to you if users do not
conduct Group-Reply option in ther email software. That would not be
useful to rely on many people with many email software to be explicit
how to answer the bug. If they miss it one time, you miss the update.

Re: bug archiving policy

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 05:18:52 -0500
> From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> > You can unarchive it yourself, as you apparently did in October.
> 
> I did not do so in October, and have no idea how I could do so myself.

Strange.  The bug tracker claims the bug was unarchived by a message
from you.  Never mind.

> >  (If you already tried and that failed, please tell the details.)
> 
> How could I do that?

Send email to control@debbugs.gnu.org with these two lines

  unarchive 42484
  thanks

Re: bug archiving policy

[Boruch Baum]

On 2020-12-06 12:24, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 05:18:52 -0500
> > From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com>
> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >
> > > You can unarchive it yourself, as you apparently did in October.
> >
> > I did not do so in October, and have no idea how I could do so myself.
>
> Strange.  The bug tracker claims the bug was unarchived by a message
> from you.  Never mind.

What happened was I emailed the org list to have it unarchived. It
wasn't me.

> > >  (If you already tried and that failed, please tell the details.)
> >
> > How could I do that?
>
> Send email to control@debbugs.gnu.org with these two lines
>
>   unarchive 42484
>   thanks

Noted for future reference. Thanks.

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Re: bug archiving policy

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 05:21:53 -0500
> From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com>
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>,
>  Emacs-Devel List <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> On 2020-12-06 11:56, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > > Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 04:26:42 -0500
> > > From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com>
> > >
> > > At this point, I'm still primarily asking for the specific bug to be
> > > unarchived so the update can be posted
> 
> It's not lost on me that both your response and Stephen's skirt my
> question about bug archiving policy...

There's no policy that I'm aware of, and I didn't archive that bug.
So I didn't see how could I say anything about that part.

Re: bug archiving policy

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 05:39:01 -0500
> From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> On 2020-12-06 12:24, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > > Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 05:18:52 -0500
> > > From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com>
> > > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > >
> > > > You can unarchive it yourself, as you apparently did in October.
> > >
> > > I did not do so in October, and have no idea how I could do so myself.
> >
> > Strange.  The bug tracker claims the bug was unarchived by a message
> > from you.  Never mind.
> 
> What happened was I emailed the org list to have it unarchived. It
> wasn't me.

That's not what I see in the message recorded by the tracker which it
sais have caused the unarchiving.  Its headers (unless I'm mis-reading
them) tell that the message came straight from you to
control@debbugs.gnu.org.  You can see it for yourself:

  https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?mbox=yes;msg=22;bug=42484

Re: bug archiving policy

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 05:21:53 -0500
>> From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com>
>> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>,
>>  Emacs-Devel List <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>>
>> On 2020-12-06 11:56, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> > > Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 04:26:42 -0500
>> > > From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com>
>> > >
>> > > At this point, I'm still primarily asking for the specific bug to be
>> > > unarchived so the update can be posted
>>
>> It's not lost on me that both your response and Stephen's skirt my
>> question about bug archiving policy...
>
> There's no policy that I'm aware of, and I didn't archive that bug.
> So I didn't see how could I say anything about that part.

Bugs are automatically archived after 30 days.  Is this what you mean,
Boruch?  If yes, what is your question?

Re: bug archiving policy

[Boruch Baum]

On 2020-12-06 12:57, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> That's not what I see in the message recorded by the tracker which it
> sais have caused the unarchiving.  Its headers (unless I'm mis-reading
> them) tell that the message came straight from you to
> control@debbugs.gnu.org.  You can see it for yourself:
>
>   https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?mbox=yes;msg=22;bug=42484

Yes. I do find the email in my 'sent' folder, so I was the culprit, somehow.

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Re: bug archiving policy

[Boruch Baum]

On 2020-12-06 05:09, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> Bugs are automatically archived after 30 days.  Is this what you mean,
> Boruch?  If yes, what is your question?

Not my experience. Most recently, see bug 18183, which I opened on 3
August 2014, was dormant for six years until earlier today, without
seeming to ever have been archived.

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=18183

That seems to be the norm for my experience.

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Re: bug archiving policy

[Michael Albinus]

Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com> writes:

>> Send email to control@debbugs.gnu.org with these two lines
>>
>>   unarchive 42484
>>   thanks
>
> Noted for future reference. Thanks.

That's not sufficient if you want to handle this bug further. It's still
closed, and closed bugs are archived after four weeks, if there is no
traffic.

Therefore, you shall also reopen the bug, by

reopen 42484

Best regards, Michael.

Re: bug archiving policy

[Michael Albinus]

Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com> writes:

> On 2020-12-06 05:09, Stefan Kangas wrote:
>> Bugs are automatically archived after 30 days.  Is this what you mean,
>> Boruch?  If yes, what is your question?
>
> Not my experience. Most recently, see bug 18183, which I opened on 3
> August 2014, was dormant for six years until earlier today, without
> seeming to ever have been archived.

*Closed* bugs are archived automatically.

Best regards, Michael.

Re: bug archiving policy

[Boruch Baum]

On 2020-12-06 12:22, Michael Albinus wrote:
> Therefore, you shall also reopen the bug, by
> ...

Done. Thanks.

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Re: bug archiving policy

[Boruch Baum]

On 2020-12-06 12:25, Michael Albinus wrote:
> *Closed* bugs are archived automatically.

Clearer. Got it. Thanks.

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Re: bug archiving policy

[Bastien]

Hi,

thanks Stefan for cc'ing me.

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Although the org-mode maintainers do read emacs-devel and bug-gnu-emacs
> with some frequency, most subscribers are not org-mode experts.
>
> I would therefore recommend sending org-mode patches directly to the
> org-mode mailing list: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org.  This makes sure it is
> seen by the competent and helpful org-mode hackers.  In most cases, I
> don't think there is any need to also open a bug against Emacs.

Yes, I recommend sending bug reports to emacs-orgmode@gnu.org first.

Note that we keep track on them here: https://updates.orgmode.org

-- 
 Bastien

Re: bug archiving policy

[Bastien]

Boruch Baum <boruch_baum@gmx.com> writes:

> On 2020-12-06 03:52, Stefan Kangas wrote:
>> (Cc to Bastien.)
>>
>> Although the org-mode maintainers do read emacs-devel and bug-gnu-emacs
>> with some frequency, most subscribers are not org-mode experts.
>>
>> I would therefore recommend sending org-mode patches directly to the
>> org-mode mailing list: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org.  This makes sure it is
>> seen by the competent and helpful org-mode hackers.  In most cases, I
>> don't think there is any need to also open a bug against Emacs.
>
> Your comments were points of discussion in the org-mode thread that I
> referenced. See there, but in part, that list requires one to first
> subscribe and become a member in order to post to the list, which is a
> barrier to entry for bug reporters not committed to be developers or
> insiders, and the method is inconsistent with other parts of emacs-core
> and thus unexpected for users. The thread also addressed issues of
> maintainabilty, bug-tracking, and other useful and constructive
> comments. Do see there.

I agree we should remove this barrier, thanks for insisting on this.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: bug archiving policy

[Bastien]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> There is main Emacs bug tracking system and such shall accept
> logically bugs that also relate to Org mode. To avoid
> misunderstandings for people reading advises, it is maybe more useful
> to say "while Org mode is part of Emacs there is also separate Org bug
> tracking mailing list" and then to advise users there in gentle
> manner. This is because not everybody can find that information
> easily and maintainers will say that maybe Org is not part of Emacs
> while it is part of Emacs thus confusing mostly new users.

I would like to introduce M-x report-org-bug as an alias to 
M-x org-submit-bug-report

I think it would help enforce the policy of submitting Org bugs to
emacs-orgmode@gnu.org first.

WDYT?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: bug archiving policy

[Stefan Kangas]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

>>> Although the org-mode maintainers do read emacs-devel and bug-gnu-emacs
>>> with some frequency, most subscribers are not org-mode experts.
>>>
>>> I would therefore recommend sending org-mode patches directly to the
>>> org-mode mailing list: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org.  This makes sure it is
>>> seen by the competent and helpful org-mode hackers.  In most cases, I
>>> don't think there is any need to also open a bug against Emacs.
>>
>> Your comments were points of discussion in the org-mode thread that I
>> referenced. See there, but in part, that list requires one to first
>> subscribe and become a member in order to post to the list, which is a

I believe you can post there without subscribing.  I have done so
successfully in the past.

>> barrier to entry for bug reporters not committed to be developers or
>> insiders, and the method is inconsistent with other parts of emacs-core
>> and thus unexpected for users. The thread also addressed issues of
>> maintainabilty, bug-tracking, and other useful and constructive
>> comments. Do see there.
>
> I agree we should remove this barrier, thanks for insisting on this.

I couldn't agree more.  I think we are just waiting for Someone (TM) to
get their hands dirty and start looking into bug trackers.  There have
been several discussions in the last year or so about this on
emacs-devel, which is probably the best starting point for such work.

Re: bug archiving policy

[Jean Louis]

* Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> [2020-12-10 14:11]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > There is main Emacs bug tracking system and such shall accept
> > logically bugs that also relate to Org mode. To avoid
> > misunderstandings for people reading advises, it is maybe more useful
> > to say "while Org mode is part of Emacs there is also separate Org bug
> > tracking mailing list" and then to advise users there in gentle
> > manner. This is because not everybody can find that information
> > easily and maintainers will say that maybe Org is not part of Emacs
> > while it is part of Emacs thus confusing mostly new users.
> 
> I would like to introduce M-x report-org-bug as an alias to 
> M-x org-submit-bug-report
> 
> I think it would help enforce the policy of submitting Org bugs to
> emacs-orgmode@gnu.org first.

Good idea.

It will work only for those who know how to use M-x. Many people do
not know, and many will use menu and skip Org and use Help to report
bug.

So better idea would be that you harmonize both org and Emacs and just
have one function to report bug as by its meaning Org is part of
Emacs.

You can keep 2 menues as usual, but one function which would determine
if the bug is related to Org mode, or not, and forward bugs to Org
mode to different mailing list with a different template.

Something like:

If user is in Org mode, then to be asked:

  - is this Org mode bug?

then if no, to proceed to standard bug report.

If user is not in Org mode, then:

- Is this general Emacs bug? Yes

If user answers No:

- Is this Org mode bug? 

The message can be prepared depending of the bug and email address can
be changed appropriately.

Org menu reporting option would work as usual. Help report emacs bug
menu option could work by asking user those questions.

Think about harmonizing user interface and not splitting users over
development of one software between its modes.

Org-mode bugs in the Emacs bug tracker (was: Re: bug archiving policy)

[Stefan Kangas]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Yes, I recommend sending bug reports to emacs-orgmode@gnu.org first.

I have been thinking a little bit about the org-mode bugs we currently
have in the Emacs bug tracker.  In general, of course we can keep them
open if it helps and the status quo seems to work mostly fine.  But it
seems like these bugs risk becoming a bit forgotten and unattended.

Perhaps we would be better off forwarding any org-mode bugs to you for
tracking instead.  The alternatives I see are:

1. Reassign any such bugs to package "org-mode", which leaves them at:
   https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=org-mode

2. Close these bugs in our tracker and forward them to
   emacs-orgmode@gnu.org.

3. Leave it all alone; continue as we have been.

Do you have any preference or thoughts about the above?

(Please forgive me if this has already been discussed in the past.
I tried searching emacs-devel but couldn't find anything.)

Re: bug archiving policy

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 03:23:50 -0800
> Cc: Emacs-Devel List <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> I believe you can post there without subscribing.

Messages to this list from people who are not subscribers need to be
approved by list moderators before they are admitted.

Re: Org-mode bugs in the Emacs bug tracker

[Bastien]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> 3. Leave it all alone; continue as we have been.

I think the one above is okay, as long as (1) we clearly encourage
users to send bugs to emacs-orgmode@gnu.org and (2) we find someone in
Org's community in charge of handling org-related Emacs debbugs bugs.

I've called for help do for (2):

https://orgmode.org/list/87h7os9b0t.fsf@bzg.fr/T/#u

-- 
 Bastien

Re: bug archiving policy

[Bastien]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
>> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 03:23:50 -0800
>> Cc: Emacs-Devel List <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>> 
>> I believe you can post there without subscribing.
>
> Messages to this list from people who are not subscribers need to be
> approved by list moderators before they are admitted.

I updated https://orgmode.org/worg/org-mailing-list.html to explain
that this is our default policy.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: bug archiving policy

[Bastien]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Something like:
>
> If user is in Org mode, then to be asked:
>
>   - is this Org mode bug?
>
> then if no, to proceed to standard bug report.

I see how this could be useful, but maybe Org is the only package in
this situation (i.e. suffering from separate ways of reporting bugs),
so I doubt implementing a specific behavior for Org is correct.

The stream of Org-related bugs reported with M-x report-emacs-bug is 
really not that big.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Org-mode bugs in the Emacs bug tracker

[Stefan Kangas]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:
>
>> 3. Leave it all alone; continue as we have been.
>
> I think the one above is okay, as long as (1) we clearly encourage
> users to send bugs to emacs-orgmode@gnu.org and (2) we find someone in
> Org's community in charge of handling org-related Emacs debbugs bugs.

Thanks.  But in addition to emacs-orgmode@gnu.org there are then three
places to look for Org-mode bugs:

1. https://updates.orgmode.org/
2. https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=org-mode
3. https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=emacs

I therefore still think we should consider getting rid of at least one
of the last two for org-mode bugs.

(My preference would be to reassign any relevant bugs to org-mode, but
either way should help make things clearer.)

WDYT?

Re: Org-mode bugs in the Emacs bug tracker

[Tim Cross]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1992 bytes --]

What is https://updates.orgmode.org? when I try that url, I get a 502 bad
gateway error.

The bit I find frustrating is I don't know where bug submitted to
emacs-orgmode@gnu.org get tracked i.e. those which are only submitted to
the list and are not passed to the list from debbugs.gnu.org. I see bug
reports come through on the list and I sometimes see patches posted to the
list to address a bug, but where can I go to see the status of all
currently known bugs and see threads relating to work in resolving the bugs
etc. I don't mind if this means checking multiple repositories (though it
would be better if there was one definitive repository).

Is there some place where all bugs reported to emacs-orgmode list are
tracked? For example, if tomorrow I find I have some spare time and would
like to contribute to org mode by seeing if I can fix a bug, where can I go
to find a list of bugs with current details about the status (including
whether someone else is already working to resolve it).

Tim

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 at 00:13, Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> wrote:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
> > Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:
> >
> >> 3. Leave it all alone; continue as we have been.
> >
> > I think the one above is okay, as long as (1) we clearly encourage
> > users to send bugs to emacs-orgmode@gnu.org and (2) we find someone in
> > Org's community in charge of handling org-related Emacs debbugs bugs.
>
> Thanks.  But in addition to emacs-orgmode@gnu.org there are then three
> places to look for Org-mode bugs:
>
> 1. https://updates.orgmode.org/
> 2. https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=org-mode
> 3. https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=emacs
>
> I therefore still think we should consider getting rid of at least one
> of the last two for org-mode bugs.
>
> (My preference would be to reassign any relevant bugs to org-mode, but
> either way should help make things clearer.)
>
> WDYT?
>
>

-- 
regards,

Tim

--
Tim Cross

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Re: Org-mode bugs in the Emacs bug tracker

[Bastien]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> 1. https://updates.orgmode.org/
> 2. https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=org-mode
> 3. https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=emacs
>
> I therefore still think we should consider getting rid of at least one
> of the last two for org-mode bugs.
>
> (My preference would be to reassign any relevant bugs to org-mode, but
> either way should help make things clearer.)

https://updates.orgmode.org is for anything worth tracking: 
change notices, help requests, *confirmed* bugs, etc.

I thought the only other place for Org tickets was
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=org-mode

I'm all for having tickets from debbugs package=emacs tracked on
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=org-mode instead.

But I don't see why all this is really an issue.

If people want to help, they can first check *confirmed* bugs on
https://updates.orgmode.org then track bugs on debbugs.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Org-mode bugs in the Emacs bug tracker

[Bastien]

Hi Tim,

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> What is https://updates.orgmode.org? 

See the announcement on this list:
https://orgmode.org/list/87y2p6ltlg.fsf@bzg.fr/

It is a way to track important updates: mainly confirmed bugs,
upcoming changes, help requests, patches, latest releases.

> when I try that url, I get a 502 bad gateway error.

Fixed, thanks.

> The bit I find frustrating is I don't know where bug submitted to 
> emacs-orgmode@gnu.org get tracked 

For years, M-x org-submit-bug-report sends reports to this list, and
the list *is* the bug tracker.  I.e. we had no bug tracker.

Some users use M-x report-emacs-bugs to submit Org bugs, these bugs
get tracked on debbugs.

> i.e. those which are only submitted
> to the list and are not passed to the list from debbugs.gnu.org. I
> see bug reports come through on the list and I sometimes see patches
> posted to the list to address a bug, but where can I go to see the
> status of all currently known bugs and see threads relating to work
> in resolving the bugs etc. I don't mind if this means checking
> multiple repositories (though it would be better if there was one
> definitive repository). 

Your safest bet is to check bugs on updates because bugs there have
been *confirmed* by someone.  Clicking on a bug on updates.orgmode.org
will bring you to the conversation on this list where the bug have
been confirmed.

Then, you can track bugs from debbugs, using one of these URLs:

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=org-mode
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=emacs

Sometimes bugs reports on debbugs are also shared on this list.

> Is there some place where all bugs reported to emacs-orgmode list are
> tracked? For example, if tomorrow I find I have some spare time and
> would like to contribute to org mode by seeing if I can fix a bug,
> where can I go to find a list of bugs with current details about the
> status (including whether someone else is already working to resolve
> it). 

You can go on https://updates.orgmode.org

You will find bugs to work on and requests for help.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Org-mode bugs in the Emacs bug tracker

[Tim Cross]

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Thanks Bastien. Seeing that updates.orgmode.org is now working really helps.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 at 10:53, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:

> Hi Tim,
>
> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > What is https://updates.orgmode.org?
>
> See the announcement on this list:
> https://orgmode.org/list/87y2p6ltlg.fsf@bzg.fr/
>
> It is a way to track important updates: mainly confirmed bugs,
> upcoming changes, help requests, patches, latest releases.
>
> > when I try that url, I get a 502 bad gateway error.
>
> Fixed, thanks.
>
> > The bit I find frustrating is I don't know where bug submitted to
> > emacs-orgmode@gnu.org get tracked
>
> For years, M-x org-submit-bug-report sends reports to this list, and
> the list *is* the bug tracker.  I.e. we had no bug tracker.
>
> Some users use M-x report-emacs-bugs to submit Org bugs, these bugs
> get tracked on debbugs.
>
> > i.e. those which are only submitted
> > to the list and are not passed to the list from debbugs.gnu.org. I
> > see bug reports come through on the list and I sometimes see patches
> > posted to the list to address a bug, but where can I go to see the
> > status of all currently known bugs and see threads relating to work
> > in resolving the bugs etc. I don't mind if this means checking
> > multiple repositories (though it would be better if there was one
> > definitive repository).
>
> Your safest bet is to check bugs on updates because bugs there have
> been *confirmed* by someone.  Clicking on a bug on updates.orgmode.org
> will bring you to the conversation on this list where the bug have
> been confirmed.
>
> Then, you can track bugs from debbugs, using one of these URLs:
>
> https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=org-mode
> https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=emacs
>
> Sometimes bugs reports on debbugs are also shared on this list.
>
> > Is there some place where all bugs reported to emacs-orgmode list are
> > tracked? For example, if tomorrow I find I have some spare time and
> > would like to contribute to org mode by seeing if I can fix a bug,
> > where can I go to find a list of bugs with current details about the
> > status (including whether someone else is already working to resolve
> > it).
>
> You can go on https://updates.orgmode.org
>
> You will find bugs to work on and requests for help.
>
> Best,
>
> --
>  Bastien
>


-- 
regards,

Tim

--
Tim Cross

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Re: Org-mode bugs in the Emacs bug tracker

[Jean Louis]

Then include that workflow in the Org bug report template, as people using Org who will report bugs do not necessary read this list neither previous bus nor references. You need summary it on a WWW page and include a hyperlink in the but report template.


Am December 11, 2020 11:53:23 PM UTC schrieb Bastien <bzg@gnu.org>:
>Hi Tim,
>
>Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> What is https://updates.orgmode.org? 
>
>See the announcement on this list:
>https://orgmode.org/list/87y2p6ltlg.fsf@bzg.fr/
>
>It is a way to track important updates: mainly confirmed bugs,
>upcoming changes, help requests, patches, latest releases.
>
>> when I try that url, I get a 502 bad gateway error.
>
>Fixed, thanks.
>
>> The bit I find frustrating is I don't know where bug submitted to 
>> emacs-orgmode@gnu.org get tracked 
>
>For years, M-x org-submit-bug-report sends reports to this list, and
>the list *is* the bug tracker.  I.e. we had no bug tracker.
>
>Some users use M-x report-emacs-bugs to submit Org bugs, these bugs
>get tracked on debbugs.
>
>> i.e. those which are only submitted
>> to the list and are not passed to the list from debbugs.gnu.org. I
>> see bug reports come through on the list and I sometimes see patches
>> posted to the list to address a bug, but where can I go to see the
>> status of all currently known bugs and see threads relating to work
>> in resolving the bugs etc. I don't mind if this means checking
>> multiple repositories (though it would be better if there was one
>> definitive repository). 
>
>Your safest bet is to check bugs on updates because bugs there have
>been *confirmed* by someone.  Clicking on a bug on updates.orgmode.org
>will bring you to the conversation on this list where the bug have
>been confirmed.
>
>Then, you can track bugs from debbugs, using one of these URLs:
>
>https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=org-mode
>https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=emacs
>
>Sometimes bugs reports on debbugs are also shared on this list.
>
>> Is there some place where all bugs reported to emacs-orgmode list are
>> tracked? For example, if tomorrow I find I have some spare time and
>> would like to contribute to org mode by seeing if I can fix a bug,
>> where can I go to find a list of bugs with current details about the
>> status (including whether someone else is already working to resolve
>> it). 
>
>You can go on https://updates.orgmode.org
>
>You will find bugs to work on and requests for help.
>
>Best,

Re: bug archiving policy

[Jean Louis]

Do you doubt it also when user reports straight from Org mode? Would it be wrong for standard emacs bug function to detect org mode and ask user if it is org related, and if it is, to route user to org report function? You don't need to ask if user does not begin bug report from Org mode

Routing is to me logical and reasonable, I get surprised that it is not and was not obvious at inception of Org bug report function and that interface within Emacs splitted into two directions of reporting bugs with later regrets and efforts to make it again right. If not solved sooner, instead of 4 or 5 per month it may results amount to 40 or 50 in some time as Org and Emacs become popular.

There are few other functions that want separate bug reporting such as TeX etc. They add to confusions.

It is more useful to have centralized bug database as that way there are better responses to users. More skilled people not subscribed to org mailing list for answer and solve bugs. Imagine if that goes further to split each package bug report to separate mailing lists, it does not branch reasonably.

Then we get into silly discussions with users telling them from official making lists how Org is not Emacs, etc. wronging and thus rejecting users.

Functions shall be united and they may remain at two places. I would even place it as main menu after Help as number of reported bugs does not correspond appropriately to number of Emacs and Org users.

The general Emacs bug function should be improved with references or button to jump to Org mode report template if it is org mode related. One click.

Org more function should report to central database debbugs, use procmail or equivalent to automatically route those bugs to org mailing list. If you don't know how, ask me or somebody who knows.

Things can be solved centrally without kicking users back and forth.


Am December 11, 2020 5:58:57 AM UTC schrieb Bastien <bzg@gnu.org>:
>Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
>> Something like:
>>
>> If user is in Org mode, then to be asked:
>>
>>   - is this Org mode bug?
>>
>> then if no, to proceed to standard bug report.
>
>I see how this could be useful, but maybe Org is the only package in
>this situation (i.e. suffering from separate ways of reporting bugs),
>so I doubt implementing a specific behavior for Org is correct.
>
>The stream of Org-related bugs reported with M-x report-emacs-bug is 
>really not that big.

Re: Org-mode bugs in the Emacs bug tracker

[Jean Louis]

We are all helpful. But that is repetitive action that can be easily automated by Elisp, better workflow design beforehand, and server side proclaim filter.

Am December 11, 2020 5:36:15 AM UTC schrieb Bastien <bzg@gnu.org>:
>Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:
>
>> 3. Leave it all alone; continue as we have been.
>
>I think the one above is okay, as long as (1) we clearly encourage
>users to send bugs to emacs-orgmode@gnu.org and (2) we find someone in
>Org's community in charge of handling org-related Emacs debbugs bugs.
>
>I've called for help do for (2):
>
>https://orgmode.org/list/87h7os9b0t.fsf@bzg.fr/T/#u

Re: bug archiving policy

[Stefan Monnier]

> Do you doubt it also when user reports straight from Org mode? Would it be
> wrong for standard emacs bug function to detect org mode and ask user if it
> is org related, and if it is, to route user to org report function? You
> don't need to ask if user does not begin bug report from Org mode

`report-emacs-bug` should definitely encourage the user to add
some info about which package is affected (in a machine-readable way).

Also we can ask debbugs to forward all `org`-tagged bug info to the
orgmode mailing-list.


        Stefan

Re: Org-mode bugs in the Emacs bug tracker

[Bastien]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Then include that workflow in the Org bug report template, as people
> using Org who will report bugs do not necessary read this list neither
> previous bus nor references. You need summary it on a WWW page and
> include a hyperlink in the but report template.

I don't understand what is your suggestion here.

Can you explain what "include that workflow in the Org bug report
template" means?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: bug archiving policy

[Bastien]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> `report-emacs-bug` should definitely encourage the user to add
> some info about which package is affected (in a machine-readable way).

Yes, that would be good.  I cannot provide a patch for this though, as
I'm still catching up with Org emails.

> Also we can ask debbugs to forward all `org`-tagged bug info to the
> orgmode mailing-list.

Yes, I would welcome this move too.

Can we have both at once?  An update of report-emacs-bugs that helps
declare what package this is about, tagging the report as "org-mode",
with debbugs then forwarding this report to emacs-orgmode@gnu.org?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: bug archiving policy

[Michael Albinus]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

Hi Bastien,

>> Also we can ask debbugs to forward all `org`-tagged bug info to the
>> orgmode mailing-list.
>
> Yes, I would welcome this move too.

I have added org-mode now as first class citizen to debbugs.gnu.org, see
<https://debbugs.gnu.org/Packages.html>. Could you pls send some test
data (aka test bugs) in order to check that it works as expected?

I have also used emacs-orgmode@gnu.org as maintainer address. This must
not be wrong, but if you have another preference ...

Best regards, Michael.

Re: bug archiving policy

[Bastien]

Hi Michael,

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

>>> Also we can ask debbugs to forward all `org`-tagged bug info to the
>>> orgmode mailing-list.
>>
>> Yes, I would welcome this move too.
>
> I have added org-mode now as first class citizen to debbugs.gnu.org, see
> <https://debbugs.gnu.org/Packages.html>. Could you pls send some test
> data (aka test bugs) in order to check that it works as expected?

Thanks a lot, but I'm not sure I fully understand the consequences and
whether this corresponds to what was suggested in this thread.  (And I
don't want to waste your time.)

I don't want debbug to become the central place for tracking Org bugs.
It is a secondary place for tracking a subset of Emacs bugs for those
who use M-x report-emacs-bugs -- mostly users who use the Org version
that comes bundled with Emacs.

The preferred way for submitting Org bugs is org-submit-bug-report and
confirmed bugs are tracked on https://updates.orgmode.org.

What I'm strongly supporting is

1) A way to get debbugs bugs autotagged with "org-mode" when
   report-emacs-bug detects (perhaps by asking interactively), that
   the user wants to report a bug about org-mode.

2) A way to have all debbug bugs tagged as "org-mode" forwarded to the
   emacs-orgmode@gnu.org mailing list.

> I have also used emacs-orgmode@gnu.org as maintainer address. This must
> not be wrong, but if you have another preference ...

From what I understand, your move solves (2) but not (1).  Correct?

If your change does not imply that debbug becomes the central place
for tracking Org bugs while solving (2), I'm fine.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Org-mode in debbugs [was Re: bug archiving policy]

[Glenn Morris]

Michael Albinus wrote:

>>> Also we can ask debbugs to forward all `org`-tagged bug info to the
>>> orgmode mailing-list.
>>
>> Yes, I would welcome this move too.
>
> I have added org-mode now as first class citizen to debbugs.gnu.org, see
> <https://debbugs.gnu.org/Packages.html>. Could you pls send some test
> data (aka test bugs) in order to check that it works as expected?
>
> I have also used emacs-orgmode@gnu.org as maintainer address. This must
> not be wrong, but if you have another preference ...

?

Please note that this has been in place for about a decade already.
Ie, there already was an org-mode entry in /etc/debbugs/Maintainers.
Now there are two...

Ref eg https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-10/msg00253.html

In case people are confused about how this works:

1. Sending to submit@debbugs with package org-mode sends the report to the
org mode list (since about 2010).

2. If an existing bug is reassigned to org-mode, all future
correspondence goes to the org mode list. (But the act of reassigning
does not trigger a notification mail to that list. So reassign, then
send a followup mail.)

See c-submit-bug-report for a way to integrate into a bug reporting
command.

Re: Org-mode in debbugs [was Re: bug archiving policy]

[Michael Albinus]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

Hi Glenn,

>> I have added org-mode now as first class citizen to debbugs.gnu.org, see
>> <https://debbugs.gnu.org/Packages.html>. Could you pls send some test
>> data (aka test bugs) in order to check that it works as expected?
>>
>> I have also used emacs-orgmode@gnu.org as maintainer address. This must
>> not be wrong, but if you have another preference ...
>
> ?
>
> Please note that this has been in place for about a decade already.
> Ie, there already was an org-mode entry in /etc/debbugs/Maintainers.
> Now there are two...

Hmm, but org-mode hasn't been in Packages.html and Lists. Maybe we shall
sort all these files alphabetically?

Anyway, I've fixed this in the Maintainers file.

Best regards, Michael.

Re: bug archiving policy

[Michael Albinus]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi Michael,

Hi Bastien,

> What I'm strongly supporting is
>
> 1) A way to get debbugs bugs autotagged with "org-mode" when
>    report-emacs-bug detects (perhaps by asking interactively), that
>    the user wants to report a bug about org-mode.
>
> 2) A way to have all debbug bugs tagged as "org-mode" forwarded to the
>    emacs-orgmode@gnu.org mailing list.
>
>> I have also used emacs-orgmode@gnu.org as maintainer address. This must
>> not be wrong, but if you have another preference ...
>
> From what I understand, your move solves (2) but not (1).  Correct?

Exactly.

> If your change does not imply that debbug becomes the central place
> for tracking Org bugs while solving (2), I'm fine.

Nobody urges you to do so. At least I don't :-)

> Thanks!

Best regards, Michael.