Translating the eps files in lispintro

Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

Is there a practical way to edit the EPS files in the Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp?

I tried to modify the text directly in Emacs but the result was not satisfying.

I was wondering if it would not be a better solution to use SVG instead?

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Po Lu]

Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org>
writes:

> Is there a practical way to edit the EPS files in the Introduction to
> Programming in Emacs Lisp?
>
> I tried to modify the text directly in Emacs but the result was not
> satisfying.
>
> I was wondering if it would not be a better solution to use SVG
> instead?

If it helps, it is said that the GIMP can edit encapsulated PostScript.

I would not hasten to abandon the EPS files, considering that the many
Texinfo output formats each support a different subset of these two
image formats.  Rather, it would be best to maintain copies of such
diagrams in both formats.

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Stefan Kangas]

Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org>
writes:

> Is there a practical way to edit the EPS files in the Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp?
>
> I tried to modify the text directly in Emacs but the result was not satisfying.
>
> I was wondering if it would not be a better solution to use SVG instead?

Why not, but does texinfo support SVG?  Starting with which version?

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Eli Zaretskii]

On January 21, 2024 3:47:42 PM GMT+02:00, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org>
> writes:
> 
> > Is there a practical way to edit the EPS files in the Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp?
> >
> > I tried to modify the text directly in Emacs but the result was not satisfying.
> >
> > I was wondering if it would not be a better solution to use SVG instead?
> 
> Why not, but does texinfo support SVG?  Starting with which version?
> 
> 

AFAIK, Texinfo doesn't support SVG images in Info documents.

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jan 21, 2024, at 23:40, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> On January 21, 2024 3:47:42 PM GMT+02:00, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org>
>> writes:
>> 
>>> Is there a practical way to edit the EPS files in the Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp?
>>> 
>>> I tried to modify the text directly in Emacs but the result was not satisfying.
>>> 
>>> I was wondering if it would not be a better solution to use SVG instead?
>> 
>> Why not, but does texinfo support SVG?  Starting with which version?

It's more a question of using SVG as a base from which to convert to other formats. See below.

> AFAIK, Texinfo doesn't support SVG images in Info documents.

Info is not concerned by eps or pdf either.

eps seems to be here to cover the TeX (DVI) output and pdf is here for the TeX (PDF) output. Html and info use the plain text graphs that are in the texi sources, and I guess DocBook too:

@c cons-cell-diagram #2
@ifnottex
@smallexample
@group
bouquet
     |
     |     ___ ___      ___ ___      ___ ___
      --> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> nil
            |            |            |
            |            |            |
             --> rose     --> violet   --> buttercup
@end group


The problem is that it does not seem trivial to edit the files in Emacs and replace the English with Japanese strings, for ex. So my question is: is EPS an accepted (editable) source format?

It would seem more practical to have a format that's a bit easier to edit (SVG, if only because it supports unicode) and from there use conversion tools to create the required formats:

eps for TeX (DVI output)
pdf/png/jpg (jpeg) for TeX (PDF output)
png, jpg (jpeg), gif for HTML output (although the current output does not use images but just plain text)
eps, gif, jpeg (jpg), pdf, png, svg for DocBook output

https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/texinfo.html#Images


Considering the needs of the lisp introduction, we could have svg for an eventual DocBook output, png for the HTML and PDF output, eps for the DVI output and we'd be all set.

Or maybe the actual source for the EPS (and PDF) files found in the intro is somewhere else? Are the files created from the texinfo source?

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Eli Zaretskii]

On January 21, 2024 5:34:27 PM GMT+02:00, Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Jan 21, 2024, at 23:40, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> > 
> > On January 21, 2024 3:47:42 PM GMT+02:00, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org>
> >> writes:
> >> 
> >>> Is there a practical way to edit the EPS files in the Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp?
> >>> 
> >>> I tried to modify the text directly in Emacs but the result was not satisfying.
> >>> 
> >>> I was wondering if it would not be a better solution to use SVG instead?
> >> 
> >> Why not, but does texinfo support SVG?  Starting with which version?
> 
> It's more a question of using SVG as a base from which to convert to other formats. See below.
> 
> > AFAIK, Texinfo doesn't support SVG images in Info documents.
> 
> Info is not concerned by eps or pdf either.
> 
> eps seems to be here to cover the TeX (DVI) output and pdf is here for the TeX (PDF) output. Html and info use the plain text graphs that are in the texi sources, and I guess DocBook too:
> 
> @c cons-cell-diagram #2
> @ifnottex
> @smallexample
> @group
> bouquet
>      |
>      |     ___ ___      ___ ___      ___ ___
>       --> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> nil
>             |            |            |
>             |            |            |
>              --> rose     --> violet   --> buttercup
> @end group
> 
> 
> The problem is that it does not seem trivial to edit the files in Emacs and replace the English with Japanese strings, for ex. So my question is: is EPS an accepted (editable) source format?
> 
> It would seem more practical to have a format that's a bit easier to edit (SVG, if only because it supports unicode) and from there use conversion tools to create the required formats:
> 
> eps for TeX (DVI output)
> pdf/png/jpg (jpeg) for TeX (PDF output)
> png, jpg (jpeg), gif for HTML output (although the current output does not use images but just plain text)
> eps, gif, jpeg (jpg), pdf, png, svg for DocBook output
> 
> https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/texinfo.html#Images
> 
> 
> Considering the needs of the lisp introduction, we could have svg for an eventual DocBook output, png for the HTML and PDF output, eps for the DVI output and we'd be all set.
> 
> Or maybe the actual source for the EPS (and PDF) files found in the intro is somewhere else? Are the files created from the texinfo source?
> 

No, the Emacs Info reader will display PNG images if Emacs supports them, and fall back to ASCII art if not.

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jan 22, 2024, at 1:05, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> On January 21, 2024 5:34:27 PM GMT+02:00, Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 21, 2024, at 23:40, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On January 21, 2024 3:47:42 PM GMT+02:00, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org>
>>>> writes:
>>>> 
>>>>> Is there a practical way to edit the EPS files in the Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I tried to modify the text directly in Emacs but the result was not satisfying.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I was wondering if it would not be a better solution to use SVG instead?
>>>> 
>>>> Why not, but does texinfo support SVG?  Starting with which version?
>> 
>> It's more a question of using SVG as a base from which to convert to other formats. See below.
>> 
>>> AFAIK, Texinfo doesn't support SVG images in Info documents.
>> 
>> Info is not concerned by eps or pdf either.
>> 
>> eps seems to be here to cover the TeX (DVI) output and pdf is here for the TeX (PDF) output. Html and info use the plain text graphs that are in the texi sources, and I guess DocBook too:
>> 
>> @c cons-cell-diagram #2
>> @ifnottex
>> @smallexample
>> @group
>> bouquet
>>     |
>>     |     ___ ___      ___ ___      ___ ___
>>      --> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> nil
>>            |            |            |
>>            |            |            |
>>             --> rose     --> violet   --> buttercup
>> @end group
>> 
>> 
>> The problem is that it does not seem trivial to edit the files in Emacs and replace the English with Japanese strings, for ex. So my question is: is EPS an accepted (editable) source format?
>> 
>> It would seem more practical to have a format that's a bit easier to edit (SVG, if only because it supports unicode) and from there use conversion tools to create the required formats:
>> 
>> eps for TeX (DVI output)
>> pdf/png/jpg (jpeg) for TeX (PDF output)
>> png, jpg (jpeg), gif for HTML output (although the current output does not use images but just plain text)
>> eps, gif, jpeg (jpg), pdf, png, svg for DocBook output
>> 
>> https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/texinfo.html#Images
>> 
>> 
>> Considering the needs of the lisp introduction, we could have svg for an eventual DocBook output, png for the HTML and PDF output, eps for the DVI output and we'd be all set.
>> 
>> Or maybe the actual source for the EPS (and PDF) files found in the intro is somewhere else? Are the files created from the texinfo source?
>> 
> 
> No, the Emacs Info reader will display PNG images if Emacs supports them, and fall back to ASCII art if not.

Ok, so we'd need eps (DVI), png (PDF/HTML/Info/DocBook) and svg could also be used for DocBook if necessary.

Inkscape could be used to (command-line) convert svg to eps and png.

Would that be an acceptable proposition to have "better" (as in editable/translatable) image source files for the introduction?

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Tim Landscheidt]

Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org> wrote:

> […]

> It would seem more practical to have a format that's a bit easier to edit (SVG, if only because it supports unicode) and from there use conversion tools to create the required formats:

> eps for TeX (DVI output)
> pdf/png/jpg (jpeg) for TeX (PDF output)
> png, jpg (jpeg), gif for HTML output (although the current output does not use images but just plain text)
> eps, gif, jpeg (jpg), pdf, png, svg for DocBook output

> https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/texinfo.html#Images

> Considering the needs of the lisp introduction, we could have svg for an eventual DocBook output, png for the HTML and PDF output, eps for the DVI output and we'd be all set.

> Or maybe the actual source for the EPS (and PDF) files found in the intro is somewhere else? Are the files created from the texinfo source?

Looking at the images, it seems natural to write them in
groff/pic and then generate whatever.

Tim

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jan 22, 2024, at 17:57, Tim Landscheidt <tim@tim-landscheidt.de> wrote:
> 
> Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org> wrote:
> 
>> […]
> 
>> It would seem more practical to have a format that's a bit easier to edit (SVG, if only because it supports unicode) and from there use conversion tools to create the required formats:
> 
>> eps for TeX (DVI output)
>> pdf/png/jpg (jpeg) for TeX (PDF output)
>> png, jpg (jpeg), gif for HTML output (although the current output does not use images but just plain text)
>> eps, gif, jpeg (jpg), pdf, png, svg for DocBook output
> 
>> https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/texinfo.html#Images
> 
>> Considering the needs of the lisp introduction, we could have svg for an eventual DocBook output, png for the HTML and PDF output, eps for the DVI output and we'd be all set.
> 
>> Or maybe the actual source for the EPS (and PDF) files found in the intro is somewhere else? Are the files created from the texinfo source?
> 
> Looking at the images, it seems natural to write them in
> groff/pic and then generate whatever.

Do you have experience in generating images with non ascii text with groff?

I just tried a simple tutorial and it did not come out well.

The translation thread mentioned French, Chinese and Japanese.

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Tim Landscheidt]

Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org> wrote:

>>> […]

>>> It would seem more practical to have a format that's a bit easier to edit (SVG, if only because it supports unicode) and from there use conversion tools to create the required formats:

>>> eps for TeX (DVI output)
>>> pdf/png/jpg (jpeg) for TeX (PDF output)
>>> png, jpg (jpeg), gif for HTML output (although the current output does not use images but just plain text)
>>> eps, gif, jpeg (jpg), pdf, png, svg for DocBook output

>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/texinfo.html#Images

>>> Considering the needs of the lisp introduction, we could have svg for an eventual DocBook output, png for the HTML and PDF output, eps for the DVI output and we'd be all set.

>>> Or maybe the actual source for the EPS (and PDF) files found in the intro is somewhere else? Are the files created from the texinfo source?

>> Looking at the images, it seems natural to write them in
>> groff/pic and then generate whatever.

> Do you have experience in generating images with non ascii text with groff?

> I just tried a simple tutorial and it did not come out well.

> The translation thread mentioned French, Chinese and Japanese.

I have never tried anything non-Latin-1.

Tim

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:32:15 +0000
> From: Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> 
> Would that be an acceptable proposition to have "better" (as in editable/translatable) image source files for the introduction?

Assuming this will still enable us to support what Texinfo wants in
its various formats, yes.

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.]

> @c cons-cell-diagram #2
> @ifnottex
> @smallexample
> @group
> bouquet
>      |
>      |     ___ ___      ___ ___      ___ ___
>       --> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> nil
>             |            |            |
>             |            |            |
>              --> rose     --> violet   --> buttercup
> @end group

Maybe we could use https://github.com/stathissideris/ditaa ?


        Stefan

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 15:08:43 -0500
> From:  Stefan Monnier via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> > @c cons-cell-diagram #2
> > @ifnottex
> > @smallexample
> > @group
> > bouquet
> >      |
> >      |     ___ ___      ___ ___      ___ ___
> >       --> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> nil
> >             |            |            |
> >             |            |            |
> >              --> rose     --> violet   --> buttercup
> > @end group
> 
> Maybe we could use https://github.com/stathissideris/ditaa ?

Did I miss something, or does this not support PNG output?

We need a tool that will support at leas the following output formats:

  . EPS for DVI
  . PDF (for printed manuals in PDF)
  . PNG, JPEG, or GIF for HTML
  . PNG for Info

(Actually, Info supports any graphical format supported by the Emacs
Info reader, so we could use SVG as well, but PNG is generally
preferred.)

See the node "Images" in the Texinfo manual for the gory details.

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Ihor Radchenko]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Did I miss something, or does this not support PNG output?

ditaa can produce EPS and PNG output.
PDF can be generated from EPS.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Yuri Khan]

On Wed, 24 Jan 2024 at 19:26, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > > bouquet
> > >      |
> > >      |     ___ ___      ___ ___      ___ ___
> > >       --> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> nil
> > >             |            |            |
> > >             |            |            |
> > >              --> rose     --> violet   --> buttercup

> We need a tool that will support at leas the following output formats:
>
>   . PNG, JPEG, or GIF for HTML

For this kind of illustrations, SVG will be preferable for HTML, too.
With raster formats, you’d either end up rendering multiple images for
different pixel densities or inconveniencing users of pixel densities
you don’t explicitly support.

Re: Translating the eps files in lispintro

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 01:20:43 +0700
> Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2024 at 19:26, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> > > > bouquet
> > > >      |
> > > >      |     ___ ___      ___ ___      ___ ___
> > > >       --> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> |___|___|--> nil
> > > >             |            |            |
> > > >             |            |            |
> > > >              --> rose     --> violet   --> buttercup
> 
> > We need a tool that will support at leas the following output formats:
> >
> >   . PNG, JPEG, or GIF for HTML
> 
> For this kind of illustrations, SVG will be preferable for HTML, too.

I was describing what Texinfo actually supports.  If you want to
suggest enhancements to Texinfo, that is better done on the Texinfo
mailing list.