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From: Juri Linkov <juri-GgPz7P5p7nCsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
To: Richard Stallman <rms-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org>
Cc: bug-gettext-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org,
	emacs-devel-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Emacs i18n
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 23:45:31 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87y357q4uc.fsf@mail.linkov.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E1h6nE3-0000bt-SW-iW7gFb+/I3LZHJUXO5efmti2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org> (Richard Stallman's message of "Wed, 20 Mar 2019 22:14:35 -0400")

>   > Indeed, a complete implementation of all Russian morphological rules
>   > takes ~1600 lines of dense Perl code:
>
>   > http://www.linkov.net/files/nlp/Lingua-RU-Inflect.pm
>
>   > I can't imagine how to include all these rules to gettext.
>
> I agree with you about that.  What I propose is something else.
>
> 1. I do not propose implementing them all.  Only some -- whichever ones
> we think are worth while.
>
> 2. I do not propose putting any of this in gettext.
> What I propose would be Emacs code that operates on the strings that
> come from gettext.

The misconception of your proposal is assuming a pure algorithmic
inflection whereas actually inflection in Russian is dictionary-based
(in addition to algorithms that process words from the dictionary),
i.e. to be able to inflect a word you need a large dictionary of all
words where each word in the dictionary has at least the following
lexical properties:
- part of speech
- noun grammatical gender: masculine, feminine, neuter
- noun animacy: animate, inanimate
- inflection type

And the main parameters that influence the declension are:
- grammatical case (one of 6 basic: nominative, genitive, dative,
  accusative, instrumental, prepositional plus some additional)
- number: singular and plural.  Dual is not a grammatical number,
  it only influences the choice of cases for words after numerals:
  for 1    - nominative case, singular
  for 2..4 - genitive case, singular
  for 5..  - genitive case, plural

An additional problem is that there are many exceptions:
some words have an additional form called "count form"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_declension#Count_form

For instance, an exception is to use "5 байт" (5 byte) instead of
what should be according to the grammatical rule that requires
genitive plural for most other words, but not for bytes,
i.e. this is incorrect: "5 байтов" (5 bytes).

Such exceptions are marked in the dictionary with a special
property that has different values:

- mandatory: only the count form is allowed for such units
  of measure as amperes, watts, volts, bits, bytes, etc.
- optional: both forms are accepted for such units as angstroms,
  gauss, (kilo)grams, decibels, carats, microns, ohms, röntgen, etc.



  parent reply	other threads:[~2019-03-21 21:45 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 151+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-03-20 11:59 Emacs i18n Bruno Haible
2019-03-20 16:36 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-20 21:32 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-21  2:14   ` Richard Stallman
     [not found]     ` <E1h6nE3-0000bt-SW-iW7gFb+/I3LZHJUXO5efmti2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2019-03-21 21:45       ` Juri Linkov [this message]
2019-03-23  2:28         ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-23  7:55           ` Yuri Khan
     [not found]             ` <CAP_d_8WjQwAtcWCfkjXHtc-dqYyBfnaP0+9L8KK6eCp4r_ZsPQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2019-03-23 17:50               ` Ineiev
2019-03-24  1:43               ` Richard Stallman
     [not found]           ` <E1h7WOF-0006T8-Be-iW7gFb+/I3LZHJUXO5efmti2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2019-03-23 21:48             ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-24  1:47               ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-22 20:50       ` Chusslove Illich
     [not found]   ` <87h8bx5ijn.fsf-i9wRM+HIrmlRTR8OWt4JRw@public.gmane.org>
2019-03-21  2:55     ` Bruno Haible
2019-03-21  2:14 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-22  1:26   ` Bruno Haible
2019-03-23  2:29     ` Richard Stallman
     [not found] <87o97aq6gz.fsf@jidanni.org>
     [not found] ` <87tvgoud56.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
     [not found]   ` <83o96wk2mi.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]     ` <87k1hjfvjd.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
     [not found]       ` <E1gzZKP-0000kS-Iw@fencepost.gnu.org>
     [not found]         ` <871s3p0zdz.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
2019-03-03  3:04           ` bug#34520: delete-matching-lines should report how many lines it deleted Richard Stallman
2019-03-03 15:31             ` Emacs i18n (was: bug#34520: delete-matching-lines should report how many lines it deleted) Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-03 20:57               ` Emacs i18n Juri Linkov
2019-03-04  1:46                 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-06  9:38                   ` Elias Mårtenson
2019-03-06 11:23                     ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-21 20:33                   ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 20:50                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-21 21:03                       ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 21:21                         ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-21 21:34                           ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 21:56                             ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-21 22:05                               ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 23:46                                 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-22  8:22                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-22 16:10                           ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-22 16:35                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-22 17:16                               ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-22 17:35                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-22 23:17                                   ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 21:17                     ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-21 21:59                     ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-22  8:22                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-23 21:50                         ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-24  3:36                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-24 21:55                             ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-24 23:31                               ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-25 21:32                                 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-25 22:31                                   ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-26 16:11                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-26 16:22                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2019-03-26 16:55                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-26 22:35                                       ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-27  3:43                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-28 14:56                                           ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-28 15:52                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-27  2:34                                       ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-26 23:16                                     ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-27  1:35                                       ` Paul Eggert
2019-04-24  6:39                                       ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-04-24 20:18                                         ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-25  3:35                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-25  9:04                                 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-25 21:02                                 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-26  3:27                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-27 23:06                                     ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-25 10:52                               ` Mattias Engdegård
2019-03-25 15:37                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-25 21:11                                 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-25 22:05                                   ` Mattias Engdegård
2019-03-27 21:22                                     ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-28 11:03                                       ` Mattias Engdegård
2019-03-04  3:27               ` Emacs i18n (was: bug#34520: delete-matching-lines should report how many lines it deleted) Richard Stallman
2019-03-04 16:36                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-04 18:37                   ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-04 19:07                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-05  2:09                       ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-05 21:58                         ` Emacs i18n Juri Linkov
2019-03-06  2:16                           ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-06 18:15                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-06 19:47                               ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-06 20:19                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07  1:52                                   ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07  3:37                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08  4:07                                       ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-08  8:16                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08  4:07                                 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-08  4:33                                   ` Elias Mårtenson
2019-03-08  8:22                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09  3:11                                     ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-09  7:54                                       ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 10:30                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-10  3:05                                         ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-10  6:07                                           ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-11  1:20                                             ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-11  3:52                                               ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-12  3:31                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-12  3:31                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-10  8:45                                           ` Yuri Khan
2019-03-10  3:05                                         ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-10  6:14                                           ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-10  3:05                                         ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-07  3:42                               ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-07 14:46                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 17:19                                   ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 18:24                                     ` martin rudalics
2019-03-07 18:44                                       ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 20:22                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 22:25                                       ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-08  7:29                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08  4:18                                       ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-08  4:11                                   ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-06 17:30                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-06 18:09                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-06 19:39                             ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-06 19:49                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07  1:33                                 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07  3:30                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 16:06                                     ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07  4:35                                   ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-07 16:04                                     ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-08  4:09                                     ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-11 21:48                                     ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-11 22:51                                       ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-12 21:45                                         ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-17 21:23                                           ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-18 21:20                                             ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-18 21:55                                               ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-19 20:40                                                 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-11 23:59                                       ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-12  9:16                                       ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-06 19:47                             ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-06 20:21                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07  1:43                                 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07  3:31                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07  3:44                             ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-07 14:48                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 22:29                                 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-08  1:48                                   ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-08  8:08                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08 15:11                                       ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-08 20:11                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09  2:44                                           ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-09  6:40                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09  8:37                                               ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-09 10:45                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 11:27                                                   ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-09 17:23                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 19:55                                                       ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 20:07                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 20:47                                                           ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 20:04                                                       ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-09 20:14                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 19:22                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 19:39                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 20:48                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 20:08                                                       ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-10  3:09                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-10 13:38                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08  7:37                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09  3:12                                     ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-08  4:11                                 ` Richard Stallman

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