From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
To: rms@gnu.org
Cc: eliz@gnu.org, juri@linkov.net, lokedhs@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Emacs i18n
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:52:47 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <21308168-e809-13f3-2e12-b8456efab836@cs.ucla.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E1h39cO-0004dr-2X@fencepost.gnu.org>
Richard Stallman wrote:
> Compare this
>
> (numeric-case NUMBER
> (russian-masc "%d байт скопирован, %s, %s")
> (russian-fem "%d байта скопировано, %s, %s")
> (russian-neut "%d байт скопировано, %s, %s"))
>
> with this:
>
> "Plural-Forms: nplurals=3; plural=(n%10==1 && n%100!=11 ? 0 : n%10>=2 && n%10<=4
> && (n%100<10 || n%100>=20) ? 1 : 2);\n"
> ...
> #: src/dd.c:822
> #, c-format
> msgid "%<PRIuMAX> byte copied, %s, %s"
> msgid_plural "%<PRIuMAX> bytes copied, %s, %s"
> msgstr[0] "%<PRIuMAX> байт скопирован, %s, %s"
> msgstr[1] "%<PRIuMAX> байта скопировано, %s, %s"
> msgstr[2] "%<PRIuMAX> байт скопировано, %s, %s"
I'm afraid that's not a apples-to-apples comparison. The first form contains
only the Russian translations, whereas the second form contains much more
information: the source-code location of the untranslated strings, a copy of the
untranslated English-language strings, and the general rules for Russian (the
last is shared among all the Russian translations, not just the translations
listed here). This extra information is useful for translators, and it has a
reasonably extensive software suite that already supports it, not to mention
translators who are already used to it.
> I can envision something like this:
>
> "russian-nom:%d байт%| скопирован%|, %s, %s"
>
> where the 'russian-nom' operator would replace the two %| sequences
> with the appropriate declensional suffixes for the nominative case.
But Russian declension is not that simple. The Russian word for "byte" is
"байт", but its plural form depends not only on the number (as in the above
examples) but also in its case: the "байт" and "байта" in the above examples are
not exhaustive. And some words have irregular declensions: for example, ребёнок
(singular) versus де́ти (plural) for the same noun. And it's not just nouns and
pronouns that are affected: adjectives also have singular and plural forms. And
I have by no means exhausted the issues involved here; to get a better feeling
for the complexity in this area, please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_declension
Although it wouldn't be impossible for Emacs Lisp code to handle all the special
cases for Russian declension, it would be tricky to implement, or to document it
in a way that translators would easily understand. And we'd also have to
implement and document similarly tricky rules for other languages. And we'd have
to deal with the fact that not every Russian-speaker agrees with how to decline
words like "байт" that are imported from English. These sorts of issues should
be delegated to translators, not to likely-fragile code in Emacs Lisp (a
technology that translators typically do not grok).
In contrast, the gettext way is relatively simple and easily understood, and is
already common practice.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-03-11 3:52 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 161+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <87o97aq6gz.fsf@jidanni.org>
[not found] ` <87tvgoud56.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
[not found] ` <83o96wk2mi.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <87k1hjfvjd.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
[not found] ` <E1gzZKP-0000kS-Iw@fencepost.gnu.org>
[not found] ` <871s3p0zdz.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
2019-03-03 3:04 ` bug#34520: delete-matching-lines should report how many lines it deleted Richard Stallman
2019-03-03 15:31 ` Emacs i18n (was: bug#34520: delete-matching-lines should report how many lines it deleted) Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-03 20:57 ` Emacs i18n Juri Linkov
2019-03-04 1:46 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-06 9:38 ` Elias Mårtenson
2019-03-06 11:23 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-21 20:33 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 20:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-21 21:03 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 21:21 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-21 21:34 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 21:56 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-21 22:05 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 23:46 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-22 8:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-22 16:10 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-22 16:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-22 17:16 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-22 17:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-22 23:17 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 21:17 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-21 21:59 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-22 8:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-23 21:50 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-24 3:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-24 21:55 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-24 23:31 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-25 21:32 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-25 22:31 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-26 16:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-26 16:22 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-03-26 16:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-26 22:35 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-27 3:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-28 14:56 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-28 15:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-27 2:34 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-26 23:16 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-27 1:35 ` Paul Eggert
2019-04-24 6:39 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-04-24 20:18 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-25 3:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-25 9:04 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-25 21:02 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-26 3:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-27 23:06 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-25 10:52 ` Mattias Engdegård
2019-03-25 15:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-25 21:11 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-25 22:05 ` Mattias Engdegård
2019-03-27 21:22 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-28 11:03 ` Mattias Engdegård
2019-03-04 3:27 ` Emacs i18n (was: bug#34520: delete-matching-lines should report how many lines it deleted) Richard Stallman
2019-03-04 16:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-04 18:37 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-04 19:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-05 2:09 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-05 21:58 ` Emacs i18n Juri Linkov
2019-03-06 2:16 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-06 18:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-06 19:47 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-06 20:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 1:52 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 3:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08 4:07 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-08 8:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08 4:07 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-08 4:33 ` Elias Mårtenson
2019-03-08 8:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 3:11 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-09 7:54 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 10:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-10 3:05 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-10 6:07 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-11 1:20 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-11 3:52 ` Paul Eggert [this message]
2019-03-12 3:31 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-12 3:31 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-10 8:45 ` Yuri Khan
2019-03-10 3:05 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-10 6:14 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-10 3:05 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-07 3:42 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-07 14:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 17:19 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 18:24 ` martin rudalics
2019-03-07 18:44 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 20:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 22:25 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-08 7:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08 4:18 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-08 4:11 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-06 17:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-06 18:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-06 19:39 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-06 19:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 1:33 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 3:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 16:06 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 4:35 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-07 16:04 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-08 4:09 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-11 21:48 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-11 22:51 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-12 21:45 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-17 21:23 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-18 21:20 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-18 21:55 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-19 20:40 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-11 23:59 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-12 9:16 ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-06 19:47 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-06 20:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 1:43 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 3:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 3:44 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-07 14:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 22:29 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-08 1:48 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-08 8:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08 15:11 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-08 20:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 2:44 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-09 6:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 8:37 ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-09 10:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 11:27 ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-09 17:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 19:55 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 20:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 20:47 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 20:04 ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-09 20:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 19:22 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 19:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 20:48 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 20:08 ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-10 3:09 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-10 13:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08 7:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 3:12 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-08 4:11 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-06 2:09 ` Emacs i18n (was: bug#34520: delete-matching-lines should report how many lines it deleted) Richard Stallman
2019-03-05 2:49 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-05 3:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-20 11:59 Emacs i18n Bruno Haible
2019-03-20 16:36 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-20 21:32 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-21 2:14 ` Richard Stallman
[not found] ` <E1h6nE3-0000bt-SW-iW7gFb+/I3LZHJUXO5efmti2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2019-03-21 21:45 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-23 2:28 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-23 7:55 ` Yuri Khan
[not found] ` <CAP_d_8WjQwAtcWCfkjXHtc-dqYyBfnaP0+9L8KK6eCp4r_ZsPQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2019-03-23 17:50 ` Ineiev
2019-03-24 1:43 ` Richard Stallman
[not found] ` <E1h7WOF-0006T8-Be-iW7gFb+/I3LZHJUXO5efmti2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2019-03-23 21:48 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-24 1:47 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-22 20:50 ` Chusslove Illich
[not found] ` <87h8bx5ijn.fsf-i9wRM+HIrmlRTR8OWt4JRw@public.gmane.org>
2019-03-21 2:55 ` Bruno Haible
2019-03-21 2:14 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-22 1:26 ` Bruno Haible
2019-03-23 2:29 ` Richard Stallman
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