Re: [External] : Re: indent-tabs-mode default [was: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel]

[Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Changing defaults is going to be annoying for some, just as leaving them
>> as is will continue to be annoying for others. In this case, it would
>> appear the two groups are about evenly distributed, so either way, some
>> proportion of users will be annoyed and using it as a reason to change
>> or not change adds little.
>>
>> The question is really what would be the expected behaviour for new
>> users? I don't know how to determine the right answer to that question
>> or even if there is a right answer.
>>
>> The only thing which seems important really is how easily the new user
>> can discover the right setting to get the behaviour they want and how
>> easily that behaviour can be configured. From memory, that was not as
>> straight-forward for a new user as it could be (but then again, for me,
>> that was nearly 30 years ago and things have changed, so perhaps it is
>> now easier than it once was. I clearly recall it taking some effort to
>> get the behaviour I wanted when first starting with emacs wrt tabs v
>> spaces).
>>
>> I also don't think all defaults are equal and should not be treated as
>> such. Some defaults feel somewhat arbitrary - indent-tab-mode feels like
>> one of these. However, other defaults are more critical as they can
>> impact on more subtle or advanced behaviour and selecting the right
>> default may impact on how easily users discover the benefits of that
>> advanced behaviour. 
>
> I think the difference between "new users" and "old users" is that old
> users already exist, while the "new users" alluded to here do not exist.
> An "annoyance" to these "new users" is an annoyance to ghosts -- to
> people who have never seen, heard of, or used Emacs.
>

Regardless of debate on whether there are new users or not, evidence
indicates those who want spaces and those who want tabs are roughly
equally divided. Therefore, half those 'old' users are required to
change the setting regardless of what the default is. All your argument
seems to come down to is that your happy with the status quo and don't
want it to change because that is in-line with your preference. That is
fine, but is no stronger an argument than arguing for the default to be
changed - in this case, changing or not changing based solely on level
of annoyance is simply insufficient. 

> Further, for as long as I can remember, there has been a section in the
> Emacs manual named "Tabs vs. Spaces".  Any Emacs user, who has
> presumably read the manual before using Emacs, should know about the
> option indent-tabs-mode.

I would suggest very few people have ever fully read the manual before
using Emacs. Besides, the best way to read the manual is with Emacs, so
you already have a 'chicken and egg' situations. Furthermore, the fact
the default was already at the setting you wanted would indicate you
never needed to find this information and therefore are not in a strong
position to argue whether that is easy or not. On the other hand, when I
started using Emacs I did need to change the default and I do recall it
took some effort to work out how to do that - enough effort to be
annoying. As already stated, annoyance is an insufficient criteria in
this case because the two sides are roughly equal. Understanding the
expectations of new users may change that balance and is therefore worth
considering.

You will find it annoying if the default changes, I find it annoying if
it doesn't - we cancel each other out. Arguing for either case based
solely on level of annoyance is pointless.