From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: indent-tabs-mode default [was: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel] Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 14:11:05 +1000 Message-ID: <87tuiyl2w1.fsf@gmail.com> References: <874kb1gjxs.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r1e4fueq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a6krg8n5.fsf@yahoo.com> <1814c1e5-5085-bfee-9bc8-2cc66949e785@yandex.ru> <871r63g12g.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wnnveg30.fsf@yahoo.com> <10b4782c-ba2a-4d98-8934-258a1203055b@yandex.ru> <871r62ec1h.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y28al837.fsf@gmail.com> <87tuiycr5e.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2670"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.7.0; emacs 27.2.50 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 06 06:55:59 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mN6fn-0000V7-5v for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 06:55:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55196 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mN6fl-0001XA-4x for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:55:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39228) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mN6er-0000Eu-P9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:55:01 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x102e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e]:33607) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mN6eq-00034Y-7I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:55:01 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102e.google.com with SMTP id pi15-20020a17090b1e4f00b00197449fc059so941259pjb.0 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 21:54:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=iz2Ay/t3NjPfzqiD2YhbWqEEODZKr8pRPp0qrd4hvsA=; b=J3WFkNRckzLpo8cf5QWoJf7lvu+skp3dsaLmJtiBsRZu9W+YFAzyHQevNIeL/DbQIn pVI/Sl3c7gc/4gIrRwvBUFXOsdb3jSi5lcX+tFS/OAb6MwDpZE/7C/RKfcvP3knNnZBG wvDpWwcTSLo96qP50MgQfZET1s+l/6lqQfNKNzbi6ALXuHsZhBZMjqurvc88d5HnEfsC RgyXDbhcVRtgiiZzdkMbLasQOgOcER1x1CTxoxgY0sv8hqCeeI4xuXuzvPgM1sesJ7Rx LwFwCQNeAaCSbGtrY89QKryKSqbInTMUwf2E+HeLX42OksRfvTzotzsEe5jyK+XcZwq4 zT0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=iz2Ay/t3NjPfzqiD2YhbWqEEODZKr8pRPp0qrd4hvsA=; b=qtlEauEicPqjujPC85tBI88Mym8n2d7YQcmOQs896FPyOXCYMqMrsziKj7rSMPbrdp inawrLTO2Qsx08oPKl6xQLDJs04M7ER/jGZKEoYNHFYD43cX2Z9TNyT/nIwm+wRFKJYO Wn5ybZE5Q2mrDwG+PRwVaf05y9vjqltjKZjalk3v/WLNV0afeA8AwOtTcWtfGyKGjCHm h4fOpG1ftcPbtkCRW2LcTwcMM6PsLoFwJxnyWLTWxRCjYV/ZyP1FlNHw23IlpRyroK0N f++IE0b9m0L6KozeRpZBjfZeUAAe0Az+zOJKsvsZqKgIl3w4pBu19u2oMWZzEooldpCA j0EA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531v8sxUYhIpAi2Vs6jJUYMr3LO18xhgaEyL5AbDEEkWlaSeFusG jI6pPm18RAxLIQ40pD0Fh4htbDh3u0M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzWbij2JnkR3sFZlLovQ9YQzlm7g1DopwcYe+fXsOk6vjnAmlHXQXvzVTS5RoK1zz03qgqPUA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:e60c:: with SMTP id j12mr12159379pjy.60.1630904098176; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 21:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from tim-desktop (106-69-96-152.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.69.96.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l11sm5951702pjg.22.2021.09.05.21.54.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 05 Sep 2021 21:54:57 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <87tuiycr5e.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:274068 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > Tim Cross writes: > >> Changing defaults is going to be annoying for some, just as leaving them >> as is will continue to be annoying for others. In this case, it would >> appear the two groups are about evenly distributed, so either way, some >> proportion of users will be annoyed and using it as a reason to change >> or not change adds little. >> >> The question is really what would be the expected behaviour for new >> users? I don't know how to determine the right answer to that question >> or even if there is a right answer. >> >> The only thing which seems important really is how easily the new user >> can discover the right setting to get the behaviour they want and how >> easily that behaviour can be configured. From memory, that was not as >> straight-forward for a new user as it could be (but then again, for me, >> that was nearly 30 years ago and things have changed, so perhaps it is >> now easier than it once was. I clearly recall it taking some effort to >> get the behaviour I wanted when first starting with emacs wrt tabs v >> spaces). >> >> I also don't think all defaults are equal and should not be treated as >> such. Some defaults feel somewhat arbitrary - indent-tab-mode feels like >> one of these. However, other defaults are more critical as they can >> impact on more subtle or advanced behaviour and selecting the right >> default may impact on how easily users discover the benefits of that >> advanced behaviour. > > I think the difference between "new users" and "old users" is that old > users already exist, while the "new users" alluded to here do not exist. > An "annoyance" to these "new users" is an annoyance to ghosts -- to > people who have never seen, heard of, or used Emacs. > Regardless of debate on whether there are new users or not, evidence indicates those who want spaces and those who want tabs are roughly equally divided. Therefore, half those 'old' users are required to change the setting regardless of what the default is. All your argument seems to come down to is that your happy with the status quo and don't want it to change because that is in-line with your preference. That is fine, but is no stronger an argument than arguing for the default to be changed - in this case, changing or not changing based solely on level of annoyance is simply insufficient. > Further, for as long as I can remember, there has been a section in the > Emacs manual named "Tabs vs. Spaces". Any Emacs user, who has > presumably read the manual before using Emacs, should know about the > option indent-tabs-mode. I would suggest very few people have ever fully read the manual before using Emacs. Besides, the best way to read the manual is with Emacs, so you already have a 'chicken and egg' situations. Furthermore, the fact the default was already at the setting you wanted would indicate you never needed to find this information and therefore are not in a strong position to argue whether that is easy or not. On the other hand, when I started using Emacs I did need to change the default and I do recall it took some effort to work out how to do that - enough effort to be annoying. As already stated, annoyance is an insufficient criteria in this case because the two sides are roughly equal. Understanding the expectations of new users may change that balance and is therefore worth considering. You will find it annoying if the default changes, I find it annoying if it doesn't - we cancel each other out. Arguing for either case based solely on level of annoyance is pointless.