From: Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: cwebber@dustycloud.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org,
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>,
ndame@protonmail.com
Subject: Re: What is the most useful potential feature which Emacs lacks?
Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 12:19:46 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87h7w0f03x.fsf@red-bean.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <jwvpnaomc5u.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Thu, 28 May 2020 09:18:42 -0400")
On 28 May 2020, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>>One idea: the first time a user tries to specify a directory in find-file,
>>>display a help screen to explain what that means, and describe a few
>>>usual ways out.
>>>Do you think this would ameliorate the problem?
>> My guess is it would ameliorate the problem for some users, and scare off
>> other ones (ones who are less patient, or, put another way, who are less
>> willing to invest time in reading an explanatory screen like that to figure
>> out what just happened).
>
>Maybe we could simply use the "confirm" mechanism. I.e. don't put any
>explanatory text, but just emit "[confirm]" and wait for a second RET,
>just like we do when `C-x C-f` specifies a non-existing file.
It would only do this the first time a user does `find-file' on a directory? Or would it be every time?
If it's every time, that punishes experienced users, who do `find-file' on directories deliberately and don't want an extra keystroke to get in the way.
If it's only the first time, then I think it has other disadvantages:
- It doesn't really help the new user know what's going on or what's about to happen.
- It mis-trains them to think that when they do `find-file' on a directory they'll be asked for confirmation, when actually that's only going to happen this one time. (Or maybe they have to set some variable to get what we currently consider the "normal" behavior? But that's adding even complexity.)
I admit that I'm basically using this as Yet Another Example of how newcomer-friendliness is inherently in tension with rewards-investors :-). It's hard to make find-file-on-a-directory less surprising for newcomers without either reducing the feature's investability (that is, without reducing a persistent new user's ability to learn about it by digesting a surprise and comprehending it) or reducing the feature's utility to the experienced users who are already familiar with it.
So, IMHO, we should change nothing about Emacs's behavior here: I think `find-file' does the best thing it can do right now.
(However, maybe it would be good to cover this behavior, or at least warn about it, in the tutorial or in other new-user help documentation -- I haven't looked at that documentation in a long time, so I can't say for sure.)
Best regards,
-Karl
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-05-28 17:19 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 188+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-05-11 20:09 What is the most useful potential feature which Emacs lacks? ndame
2020-05-12 6:57 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-12 7:13 ` ndame
2020-05-12 12:54 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-12 13:07 ` ndame
2020-05-12 14:56 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-13 0:39 ` HaiJun Zhang
2020-05-13 1:34 ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-05-13 1:50 ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-05-12 10:00 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-12 11:10 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-13 3:55 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13 10:32 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-14 5:11 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 10:34 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-15 3:25 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 8:15 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-16 4:18 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-16 22:07 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-18 3:45 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-18 8:05 ` Tramp and crypted files (was: What is the most useful potential feature which Emacs lacks?) Michael Albinus
2020-05-19 4:01 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-19 14:38 ` Tramp and crypted files Michael Albinus
2020-05-20 4:00 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-19 8:51 ` Deus Max
2020-05-19 14:48 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-20 8:27 ` Deus Max
2020-05-20 8:49 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-20 17:49 ` Deus Max
2020-05-20 19:09 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-25 18:48 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-26 4:13 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-26 7:13 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-27 3:09 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-28 13:05 ` Deus Max
2020-05-29 9:16 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-29 16:33 ` Deus Max
2020-06-07 15:08 ` Michael Albinus
2020-06-13 12:06 ` Deus Max
2020-06-13 13:15 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-29 18:22 ` Deus Max
2020-05-17 8:28 ` What is the most useful potential feature which Emacs lacks? Michael Albinus
2020-05-12 11:57 ` Eric S Fraga
2020-05-12 15:34 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-12 16:33 ` Eric S Fraga
2020-05-12 17:39 ` Tramp nextcloud (was: What is the most useful potential feature which Emacs lacks?) Michael Albinus
2020-05-12 18:12 ` Tramp nextcloud H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-13 8:59 ` Eric S Fraga
2020-05-13 9:33 ` Tramp nextcloud (SOLVED) Eric S Fraga
2020-05-13 10:45 ` Michael Albinus
2020-05-13 11:10 ` Eric S Fraga
2020-05-12 15:04 ` What is the most useful potential feature which Emacs lacks? Arthur Miller
2020-05-12 16:00 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-12 12:30 ` Helmut Eller
2020-05-13 1:22 ` Jose A. Ortega Ruiz
[not found] ` <5AYrQ3kvagEiLsXcUuMZvkDj1gBHT4YnJyVCX6RsvMkayS1ZbGWk18lJOyo_m8XanhsUygUtEqZw8OOOQOlwkg==@protonmail.internalid>
2020-05-13 2:45 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-13 3:58 ` jao
2020-05-13 23:12 ` João Távora
2020-05-14 0:04 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-14 10:08 ` Helmut Eller
2020-05-14 10:17 ` tomas
2020-05-14 10:34 ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-14 10:40 ` tomas
2020-05-15 3:25 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 3:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-15 3:25 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 3:51 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 4:18 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-16 9:29 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 2:55 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 3:17 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 6:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 4:18 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-16 7:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 12:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 2:56 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-17 7:22 ` Andreas Schwab
2020-05-18 3:42 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-18 14:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-19 3:56 ` shr.el rename? Richard Stallman
2020-05-19 5:50 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-19 12:41 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-05-19 15:04 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-19 16:47 ` T.V Raman
2020-05-20 3:59 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-20 4:02 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-18 15:20 ` What is the most useful potential feature which Emacs lacks? Filipp Gunbin
2020-05-18 15:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 9:10 ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-15 10:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 11:07 ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-15 11:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 11:49 ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-15 11:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 12:14 ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-15 12:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 15:22 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-15 15:28 ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-16 4:18 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-16 4:17 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-16 6:50 ` Andreas Schwab
2020-05-16 8:24 ` Yuri Khan
2020-05-17 2:56 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 11:57 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-12 12:44 ` Christopher Lemmer Webber
2020-05-13 16:36 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-14 3:01 ` Christopher Lemmer Webber
2020-05-14 4:08 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-14 10:01 ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-14 16:35 ` Christopher Lemmer Webber
2020-05-17 1:31 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 3:43 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 3:16 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-28 4:00 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-28 13:18 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-28 17:19 ` Karl Fogel [this message]
2020-05-28 18:05 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-28 18:45 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-28 20:52 ` Alan Third
2020-05-28 21:02 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-28 21:10 ` Alan Third
2020-05-28 21:27 ` andres.ramirez
2020-05-28 21:54 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-29 13:24 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-28 21:14 ` Joost Kremers
2020-05-29 13:24 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-29 1:24 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-29 3:36 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-29 3:06 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-29 3:41 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-29 13:19 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-30 5:23 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-05-29 13:11 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-13 17:48 ` ndame
2020-05-14 1:15 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-14 4:10 ` ndame
2020-05-14 4:28 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-15 10:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-17 5:37 ` ndame
2020-05-17 12:42 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17 13:18 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-19 3:47 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-17 22:03 ` chad
2020-05-13 21:05 ` Vasilij Schneidermann
2020-05-14 14:35 ` Björn Lindqvist
2020-06-03 11:39 ` What is the most useful potential feature which Emacs lacks? A: Autocompletion Konstantin Kharlamov
2020-06-03 12:36 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-06-03 12:50 ` Konstantin Kharlamov
2020-06-03 13:10 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-06-03 13:59 ` Konstantin Kharlamov
2020-06-03 14:21 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-06-03 14:40 ` Konstantin Kharlamov
2020-06-03 18:49 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-06-03 14:49 ` Drew Adams
2020-06-03 20:15 ` Konstantin Kharlamov
2020-06-03 20:36 ` Drew Adams
2020-06-03 20:49 ` Drew Adams
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-05-12 7:11 What is the most useful potential feature which Emacs lacks? Zhu Zihao
2020-05-12 7:22 ndame
2020-05-27 15:58 Van Ly
2020-05-28 3:13 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-30 7:17 ` Van Ly
2020-05-31 7:10 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-31 10:01 ` Van Ly
2020-05-31 12:49 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-06-01 3:54 ` Richard Stallman
2020-06-01 5:21 ` Yuri Khan
2020-06-02 2:55 ` Richard Stallman
2020-06-02 3:57 ` Karl Fogel
2020-06-02 5:15 ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-06-02 13:42 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-06-01 9:11 ` Bastien
2020-06-01 15:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-06-01 23:32 ` Bastien
2020-06-01 23:50 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-06-06 9:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-06-06 9:58 ` tomas
2020-06-06 10:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-06-06 10:29 ` tomas
2020-06-06 14:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-06-06 14:58 ` Arthur Miller
2020-06-06 20:18 ` tomas
2020-06-06 22:20 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-06-06 9:59 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-06-06 10:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-06-06 10:18 ` tomas
2020-06-06 12:05 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2021-03-04 11:46 Evgeny Zajcev
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
List information: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=87h7w0f03x.fsf@red-bean.com \
--to=kfogel@red-bean.com \
--cc=cwebber@dustycloud.org \
--cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
--cc=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca \
--cc=ndame@protonmail.com \
--cc=rms@gnu.org \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).