From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord)
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: Daniel Colascione <dancol@dancol.org>,
monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Unbalanced change hooks (part 2) [Documentation fix still remaining]
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 15:12:13 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <871t16e476.fsf@russet.org.uk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <83inujbpek.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 29 Aug 2016 17:50:11 +0300")
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> Sure, I guess you could argue that current Emacs behavior is consistent with
>> the manual, but it's not what anyone would reasonably expect, and the
>> current behavior is surprising even to people who have been writing elisp
>> for a long time.
>
> Surprising or not, the existing implementation is in use for many
> years, and until now no complaints were presented about it.
Actually, it caused me significant issues several years ago, and I would
have prefered that the hooks were balanced. I'd rather fix things than
complain, but you can consider this a complaint if you will.
> And even now we have a single complaint from a single use case of a
> single package (which meanwhile fixed the problem without any core
> changes). Which is ample evidence that the existing implementation
> does a good job after all.
No, I don't think it is. It might be evidence that people know to seek
alternative solutions instead of using b-c-f and a-c-f.
>> I'm confident that with enough review, the core code could be changed to
>> make b-c-f and a-c-f symmetric without causing weird bugs elsewhere. The
>> necessary refactoring will probably make the logic cleaner as well.
>>
>> Of course there's a risk that changing b-c-f will itself produce weird side
>> effects, but I have a hard time seeing how any code could actually depend on
>> the current surprising behavior.
>
> That's exactly the nonchalant attitude towards changes in core that
> explains why, after 30-odd years of development, which should have
> given us an asymptotically more and more stable Emacs, we still
> succeed quite regularly to break core code and basic features, while
> "confidently" relying on our mythical abilities to refactor correctly
> without any serious testing coverage. Never again.
Can I deliberately misinterpret this as saying that you think that the
changes would be fine so long as we add lots of tests at the same time?
Phil
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2016-08-30 14:12 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 189+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2016-07-31 12:16 Unbalanced change hooks (part 2) Alan Mackenzie
2016-07-31 13:58 ` Noam Postavsky
2016-07-31 15:21 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-07-31 15:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-31 17:28 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-07-31 18:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-31 18:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-31 19:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-31 19:20 ` Noam Postavsky
2016-07-31 21:26 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-01 13:01 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-01 13:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-01 16:53 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-01 17:15 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-01 19:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-01 20:52 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-02 14:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 16:09 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-02 16:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 17:24 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-07 14:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-07 15:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-07 21:48 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-08 0:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-02 14:46 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-01 19:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 14:39 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-07-31 18:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-07-31 19:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-31 21:59 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-01 13:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-01 14:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-01 14:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-01 15:28 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-07-31 19:33 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-07-31 19:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-09 15:01 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-09 15:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-19 14:51 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 1:15 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 14:34 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 15:11 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-31 11:00 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-31 12:24 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-09-01 6:49 ` Phillip Lord
2016-09-01 13:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-09-01 6:40 ` Phillip Lord
2016-09-01 13:33 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-09-02 11:34 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 16:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-01 16:38 ` Richard Stallman
2016-08-02 10:15 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-02 10:37 ` Richard Copley
2016-08-02 16:11 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-02 14:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 16:55 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-02 17:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 18:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 19:38 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-03 2:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-08 14:36 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-08 15:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-08 16:54 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-08 17:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-08 18:42 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-08 19:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-08 19:54 ` Unbalanced change hooks (part 2) [PATCH] Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-09 15:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-09 16:38 ` Unbalanced change hooks (part 2) [Documentation fix still remaining] Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-09 16:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-09 18:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-09 18:35 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-09 17:14 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-09 18:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-09 19:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-10 14:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-10 14:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-10 15:16 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-10 15:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-10 16:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-10 16:11 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-18 14:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-18 16:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-19 8:45 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-19 9:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-19 9:21 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-19 9:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-19 9:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-10 16:18 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-10 16:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-10 17:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-10 18:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-10 18:57 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-10 19:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-10 19:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-11 11:29 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-11 16:43 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-28 11:23 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-28 15:01 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-28 22:16 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-28 22:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-28 23:11 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-29 0:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-29 3:18 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-29 13:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-29 14:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 15:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-29 16:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 15:14 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-29 15:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 14:07 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 15:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 16:22 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 16:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 14:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 15:30 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-29 16:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 16:26 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-29 17:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 17:48 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-29 18:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 18:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 2:27 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 2:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 0:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 2:26 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 2:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 2:54 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 14:20 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 15:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 12:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 14:12 ` Phillip Lord [this message]
2016-08-30 16:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-31 11:20 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-31 14:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 17:12 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 17:27 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 17:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 17:46 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 18:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 18:04 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 18:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 18:58 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 19:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 21:46 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-31 2:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 18:27 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-09-01 13:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 18:01 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 18:06 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 18:17 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 18:30 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 18:32 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 18:47 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 18:55 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 19:14 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 20:34 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 20:53 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 21:37 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 18:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 18:22 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 18:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 17:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 17:42 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 17:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 18:16 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 18:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 19:00 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 18:14 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-09-01 21:25 ` Davis Herring
2016-09-02 7:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-28 22:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 13:30 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 13:39 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-31 11:04 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 15:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 16:01 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 16:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 17:57 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-31 11:17 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-31 11:12 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 16:23 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 16:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 19:00 ` Unbalanced change hooks (part 2) Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-02 19:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-07 21:16 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-08 15:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-08 19:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-08 20:16 ` Alan Mackenzie
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