From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Unbalanced change hooks (part 2) [Documentation fix still remaining]
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:50:06 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <jwvy444ju7r.fsf-monnier+Inbox@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20160810185735.GD3413@acm.fritz.box> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:57:35 +0000")
> Do @emph{not} expect the before-change hooks and the after-change
> hooks be called in balanced pairs around each buffer change. Also
> don't expect the before-change hooks to be called for every chunk of
> text Emacs is about to delete. These hooks are provided on the
> assumption that Lisp programs will use either before- or the
> after-change hooks, but not both, and the boundaries of the region
> where the changes happen might include more than just the actual
> changed text, or even lump together several changes done piecemeal.
That looks OK, thank you. It does make it sound like sometimes b-c-f
won't be called at all, whereas AFAIU it is *always* called before
a change, tho maybe "too early" (i.e. announcing several changes at the
same time), but I think it's good enough for now.
> One can (indeed, often MUST) expect b-c-f and a-c-f to work in pairs,
No. I know you *want* to expect it, but that assumption has not been
true for many years and we don't want to impose it on ourselves.
Furthermore there is no evidence that you "MUST".
I gave various examples of ways you can live with only a-c-f.
> Editing text involves deletions and insertions.
It also involves replacements.
> Deletions can be known only in before-change-functions, insertions
> only in after-change-functions.
Not at all. Deletions are definitely announced to a-c-f.
> CC Mode absolutely requires to know both deletions and insertions for
> its proper functioning. Nobody has yet demonstrated that it can work
> properly knowing only insertions, despite Stefan loudly and repeatedly
> proclaiming it can.
All major modes using syntax-propertize demonstrate it. C++ has its
share of syntactic quirks, but none that are fundamentally very
different from what we find in other languages such as Perl.
I also outlined in more detailed how to deal with a specific example you
seemed to think required absolutely to know what was there before
the deletion.
> enabling state to be determined in a before-change function and used
> in an after-change function.
That's exactly what I want to strongly discourage. Based on my
experience with CC-mode, I'd even say that it's just a bad design, even
if the hooks were always called in pairs. I don't know nor care about
how we ended up with such a design, and I understand that you might
prefer to try and live with it than to go back and rethink it, but it's
still a bad design (nor is it the only bad design we have in Emacs, of
course).
Stefan
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2016-08-10 19:50 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 189+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2016-07-31 12:16 Unbalanced change hooks (part 2) Alan Mackenzie
2016-07-31 13:58 ` Noam Postavsky
2016-07-31 15:21 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-07-31 15:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-31 17:28 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-07-31 18:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-31 18:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-31 19:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-31 19:20 ` Noam Postavsky
2016-07-31 21:26 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-01 13:01 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-01 13:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-01 16:53 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-01 17:15 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-01 19:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-01 20:52 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-02 14:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 16:09 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-02 16:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 17:24 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-07 14:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-07 15:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-07 21:48 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-08 0:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-02 14:46 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-01 19:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 14:39 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-07-31 18:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-07-31 19:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-31 21:59 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-01 13:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-01 14:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-01 14:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-01 15:28 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-07-31 19:33 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-07-31 19:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-09 15:01 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-09 15:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-19 14:51 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 1:15 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 14:34 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 15:11 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-31 11:00 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-31 12:24 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-09-01 6:49 ` Phillip Lord
2016-09-01 13:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-09-01 6:40 ` Phillip Lord
2016-09-01 13:33 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-09-02 11:34 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 16:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-01 16:38 ` Richard Stallman
2016-08-02 10:15 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-02 10:37 ` Richard Copley
2016-08-02 16:11 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-02 14:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 16:55 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-02 17:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 18:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 19:38 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-03 2:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-08 14:36 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-08 15:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-08 16:54 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-08 17:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-08 18:42 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-08 19:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-08 19:54 ` Unbalanced change hooks (part 2) [PATCH] Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-09 15:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-09 16:38 ` Unbalanced change hooks (part 2) [Documentation fix still remaining] Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-09 16:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-09 18:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-09 18:35 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-09 17:14 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-09 18:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-09 19:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-10 14:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-10 14:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-10 15:16 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-10 15:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-10 16:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-10 16:11 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-18 14:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-18 16:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-19 8:45 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-19 9:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-19 9:21 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-19 9:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-19 9:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-10 16:18 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-10 16:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-10 17:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-10 18:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-10 18:57 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-10 19:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-10 19:50 ` Stefan Monnier [this message]
2016-08-11 11:29 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-11 16:43 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-28 11:23 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-28 15:01 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-28 22:16 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-28 22:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-28 23:11 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-29 0:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-29 3:18 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-29 13:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-29 14:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 15:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-29 16:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 15:14 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-29 15:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 14:07 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 15:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 16:22 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 16:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 14:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 15:30 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-29 16:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 16:26 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-29 17:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 17:48 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-29 18:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-29 18:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 2:27 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 2:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 0:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 2:26 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 2:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 2:54 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 14:20 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 15:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 12:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 14:12 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 16:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-31 11:20 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-31 14:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 17:12 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 17:27 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 17:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 17:46 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 18:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 18:04 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 18:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 18:58 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 19:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 21:46 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-31 2:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 18:27 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-09-01 13:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 18:01 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 18:06 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 18:17 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 18:30 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 18:32 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 18:47 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 18:55 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 19:14 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 20:34 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 20:53 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 21:37 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 18:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 18:22 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 18:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 17:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 17:42 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 17:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 18:16 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 18:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 19:00 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-30 18:14 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-09-01 21:25 ` Davis Herring
2016-09-02 7:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-28 22:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 13:30 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 13:39 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-31 11:04 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 15:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 16:01 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-30 16:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-30 17:57 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-31 11:17 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-31 11:12 ` Phillip Lord
2016-08-30 16:23 ` Daniel Colascione
2016-08-30 16:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-02 19:00 ` Unbalanced change hooks (part 2) Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-02 19:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-07 21:16 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-08-08 15:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-08-08 19:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-08-08 20:16 ` Alan Mackenzie
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