From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Unbalanced change hooks (part 2) [Documentation fix still remaining] Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 15:12:13 +0100 Message-ID: <871t16e476.fsf@russet.org.uk> References: <83inv9hkjd.fsf@gnu.org> <83h9ashfgx.fsf@gnu.org> <831t1wharr.fsf@gnu.org> <20160810161821.GB3413@acm.fritz.box> <83wpjofttf.fsf@gnu.org> <20160810185735.GD3413@acm.fritz.box> <20160811112951.GA2154@acm.fritz.box> <7e1478b6-cf00-fcbf-8c24-43bdaa57e2b6@dancol.org> <415d1cca-f32c-624e-a4be-9aadcf8a0f17@dancol.org> <83inujbpek.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1472566365 14467 195.159.176.226 (30 Aug 2016 14:12:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 14:12:45 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: Daniel Colascione , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 30 16:12:37 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bejmF-0002oh-W5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2016 16:12:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49370 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bejmD-0005Qi-NF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2016 10:12:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43263) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bejm4-0005QM-SW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2016 10:12:28 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bejlz-000849-N6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2016 10:12:23 -0400 Original-Received: from cloud103.planethippo.com ([31.216.48.48]:44804) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bejlv-00083k-7P; Tue, 30 Aug 2016 10:12:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=russet.org.uk; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From; bh=WxA/gB6cwxZJR70WOqHkjgFw2utI0kCBYxNap6a6iV8=; b=19fpO3QkqzJmXBO3TwvdL//RhT 0ywp0xmOgYozyxtsXOCIECg78shD3A8R2DrsHX8DTHK3ntfJNchYEni4hwRyPZhHUGEK2117QvwIa nRvWVWDyQlz+utACoQS7jjm1APkjY8C6Tf3lEB9QMQKz77nkO+YOTc0XwtIDIvJQCC2eIE3MsX1GE KBpJsrRXfKgdJ8cz1gXNv2IGS9iu7OqRCoTw914jwbZq42gP/eBJHHj8NphVX68CxF6C8KV6GVZ0/ euFOuMVbiYTW4eO7nx9lh+hu7AZGvrUgFP516zEsA6XownDiPlQBIqzSeSzcKxzPwHRMJk9p+TSyY njEWJW7Q==; Original-Received: from janus-nat-128-240-225-60.ncl.ac.uk ([128.240.225.60]:58553 helo=russet.org.uk) by cloud103.planethippo.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86_1) (envelope-from ) id 1bejlt-001eC2-Ob; Tue, 30 Aug 2016 15:12:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83inujbpek.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 29 Aug 2016 17:50:11 +0300") X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cloud103.planethippo.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - russet.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cloud103.planethippo.com: authenticated_id: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cloud103.planethippo.com: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 31.216.48.48 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:206933 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Sure, I guess you could argue that current Emacs behavior is consistent with >> the manual, but it's not what anyone would reasonably expect, and the >> current behavior is surprising even to people who have been writing elisp >> for a long time. > > Surprising or not, the existing implementation is in use for many > years, and until now no complaints were presented about it. Actually, it caused me significant issues several years ago, and I would have prefered that the hooks were balanced. I'd rather fix things than complain, but you can consider this a complaint if you will. > And even now we have a single complaint from a single use case of a > single package (which meanwhile fixed the problem without any core > changes). Which is ample evidence that the existing implementation > does a good job after all. No, I don't think it is. It might be evidence that people know to seek alternative solutions instead of using b-c-f and a-c-f. >> I'm confident that with enough review, the core code could be changed to >> make b-c-f and a-c-f symmetric without causing weird bugs elsewhere. The >> necessary refactoring will probably make the logic cleaner as well. >> >> Of course there's a risk that changing b-c-f will itself produce weird side >> effects, but I have a hard time seeing how any code could actually depend on >> the current surprising behavior. > > That's exactly the nonchalant attitude towards changes in core that > explains why, after 30-odd years of development, which should have > given us an asymptotically more and more stable Emacs, we still > succeed quite regularly to break core code and basic features, while > "confidently" relying on our mythical abilities to refactor correctly > without any serious testing coverage. Never again. Can I deliberately misinterpret this as saying that you think that the changes would be fine so long as we add lots of tests at the same time? Phil