From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: Gregory Heytings <ghe@sdf.org>, casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 21:48:52 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20200911194852.sdtu3sthpdpkaijo@Ergus> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <837dt0f936.fsf@gnu.org>
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 09:43:09PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:00:41 +0000
>> From: Gregory Heytings <ghe@sdf.org>
>> cc: casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> > How would they even understand the doc strings without knowing what's a
>> > buffer and what's a window? We have the Glossary section in the manual,
>> > for that very reason.
>>
>> Again my point of view is: what are the most essential things that a user
>> needs to know to use Emacs if we have no more than three minutes? The
>> point is to create a minimal configuration wizard / guided tour to
>> introduce them to the most essential things and help them to create a
>> minimal configuration with which they would feel "at home", instead of
>> having the "this is weird" feeling.
>
>That is a very different goal from that of our tutorial (or any good
>tutorial, IMO). A tutorial should present the important workings of
>the tool it describes, which includes all the basic operations and
>ideas.
>
>A user who has no more than 3 minutes can just start typing and use
>the menus for the rest. I believe Emacs supports all the features
>such a user can expect: cursor motion with arrows and PageUp/PageDown,
>text insertion and deletion, saving via the menus, etc.
>
>But if you think such "3-minute users" need a document to get them
>started, by all means, write such a document. It is not what the
>tutorial attempts to do, though.
>
Lets say that the problem is the unfamiliar way how emacs work in some
aspects. In this list is repeated constantly that we shouldn't do this
or that; or use a such set of bindings, colors, or methods just because
the other editors do. So the only way to keep that is enforcing a
learning curve because very little users will arrive trained in "the
emacs way".
If a user opens any editor around he never looks into the menus for copy
or paste, but just right-click and a panel or C-c and C-v as they are
standard anywhere else.
I don't like to enable CUA mode by default, but start emacs and work is
not so easy so if a user only have 3 minutes to start he will open
gedit, kwire, kate or geany and everything works as expected in those 3
minutes.
>> You mention "doc strings", but why on earth would a user who just started
>> using Emacs read doc strings?
>
>To learn more about Emacs, of course.
>
I said that, 5-10 minutes is a bit better than 3. IMO the Mike's videos
are the perfect format. Maybe the only problem is the emacs window size
on the screen and that they are more oriented to the external packages
than in the internals.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-09-11 19:48 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 173+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-09-08 18:48 Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-08 19:30 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-08 21:30 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09 3:51 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-09 14:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-09 14:24 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-09 15:07 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-09-09 16:09 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-09 16:23 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09 16:06 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-11 4:13 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11 4:13 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11 4:41 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09 7:57 ` tomas
2020-09-10 2:40 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10 3:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 8:29 ` tomas
2020-09-10 9:08 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-10 9:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 10:08 ` tomas
2020-09-10 9:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 10:11 ` tomas
2020-09-11 4:18 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11 7:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 13:47 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-12 3:22 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-12 3:46 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-10 8:28 ` tomas
2020-09-09 14:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 23:20 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 0:20 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Stefan Kangas
2020-09-11 8:15 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 9:47 ` Interactive guide for new users Phil Sainty
2020-09-11 14:04 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 14:38 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 14:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 15:20 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 15:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 15:46 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 15:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 16:00 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 17:03 ` Interactive guide for new users Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 17:23 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 17:36 ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 17:39 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 18:43 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 19:48 ` Ergus [this message]
2020-09-12 6:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 9:33 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 12:13 ` Interactive guide for new users Philip K.
2020-09-11 18:59 ` FW: Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Drew Adams
2020-09-11 17:47 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-11 17:53 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 18:04 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-12 11:16 ` Interactive guide for new users Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-09-12 14:26 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 14:55 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 15:10 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 15:18 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-13 18:12 ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-11 14:02 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Yuan Fu
2020-09-12 9:31 ` Interactive guide for new users Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 9:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 10:35 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 10:52 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 10:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 11:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-12 12:00 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 12:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 13:56 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 14:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 12:54 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 12:16 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 12:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 13:18 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 13:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 14:17 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 14:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 14:55 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 16:25 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 17:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 17:21 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-12 17:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 18:36 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 20:05 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 0:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 2:35 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 17:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 22:10 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-14 11:20 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-14 23:42 ` E
2020-09-15 7:40 ` Ergus
2020-09-15 23:40 ` E
2020-09-15 12:10 ` Stephen Leake
2020-09-15 12:22 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-15 23:33 ` E
2020-09-13 18:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 18:20 ` Tim Van den Langenbergh
2020-09-13 21:10 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 7:14 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-13 14:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-13 16:38 ` John Yates
2020-09-13 16:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-13 17:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-14 12:41 ` John Yates
2020-09-14 15:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-15 1:42 ` John Yates
2020-09-15 7:00 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-16 3:30 ` John Yates
2020-09-16 10:14 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-15 14:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-14 22:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 17:47 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-14 14:17 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-26 9:16 ` Elias Mårtenson
2020-09-26 9:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 14:38 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 15:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 16:33 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 16:39 ` Andreas Schwab
2020-09-26 16:57 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 16:01 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-12 11:02 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 12:12 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-14 10:52 ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-19 15:20 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-19 17:02 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-21 14:50 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-21 16:07 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-21 21:40 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-21 23:03 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-22 3:40 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-22 9:06 ` Interactive guide for new users Philip K.
2020-09-23 3:40 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-23 12:49 ` Philip K.
2020-09-24 1:32 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26 3:13 ` Okam
2020-09-22 14:06 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-28 9:24 ` Po Lu
2020-09-29 3:29 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-19 17:16 ` Philip K.
2020-09-19 17:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 18:09 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-19 18:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 21:43 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-20 5:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-21 22:15 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-22 13:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-23 12:54 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-23 13:28 ` Caio Henrique
2020-09-23 13:42 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-23 14:16 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-09-23 14:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-23 23:14 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-30 13:20 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-30 14:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 17:53 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-20 9:26 ` Philip K.
2020-09-21 21:48 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-11 6:45 ` Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 8:51 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-11 8:59 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 13:52 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 14:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 14:27 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-09 2:01 ` Nick Savage
2020-09-09 14:48 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-10 2:36 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10 10:07 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-10 17:28 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-10 21:17 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
[not found] <<875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com>
[not found] ` <<D09D40C2-FF5C-4D1B-A030-C710297C1AE0@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<CADwFkm=GQqZ2e07QuC582T-MNhi1Xo4OPsMTYbQHH9gD7h6QnA@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<alpine.NEB.2.22.394.2009120917260453.23267@sdf.lonestar.org>
[not found] ` <<83d02re2uk.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-09-12 16:25 ` Interactive guide for new users Drew Adams
2020-09-13 4:34 ` Ihor Radchenko
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