From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 21:48:52 +0200 Message-ID: <20200911194852.sdtu3sthpdpkaijo@Ergus> References: <32292E31-1603-4EF9-B772-EBD378C32F76@gmail.com> <83o8mcfjxb.fsf@gnu.org> <83een8fi2u.fsf@gnu.org> <83blicfh1l.fsf@gnu.org> <837dt0f936.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="20893"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Gregory Heytings , casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 11 21:49:40 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGp3E-0005KG-Eb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 21:49:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45744 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGp3D-0001SR-HD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:49:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48464) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGp2h-0000w8-Lw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:49:07 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic309-14.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.129.124]:43792) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGp2d-0002gd-TS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:49:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1599853742; bh=bC6/HR9yaQfeekdGP+JNcSBR1P8wrZfwAnX+Bp5e4EY=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=k/DytwZm9tHLvzayjfMdy1TzWcq1zdhL4zDivXKiosce7+pmqIqedA+r6JPqhilWH5reSTUapBs7oKL60yeh5qI+ZrM5bF8WAq41Xld5IbaK5LAfm9n3wrow+wv5vJjjrh5Dhha2se5MBWV46vH+xwlcO2GoFVjOb7hE9udPno5x+3XCCky81l89+L/vaId0/V0PG/yJrC8Lvbbmbgob3uvDtw2qDmBrfPINX6h7yLoZTRFvcxSE9tw3a9dH4EAGSYoEuZ0iZqTAil/yo4a4CeE/JYmjrX/v6u7kfTGIxwc1e5kil24xnVmYi1J72gp3TJhf/kuAMY8YQ8ovb9/o0A== X-YMail-OSG: Lj1Pr0AVM1kCI3KQ98BKpcqN.UBw0peHZX6yTcVYuyxaITB9opBNDeBmDrnQCnt 8iwrX9dVNB8z9RSPl1Xas4DfEZuqYHafC3zR70brsRMIjZJt1M0vy1aoBiZUguUrYe2yAsV8d6vd OQHqY.fn37Z4lEoxHTk0SiICMXVp8I6XBcC46DkCW4x9fOQQBxvFzE145ObXqqDwn7JyBP9Qic0i TLF2t2bXWWEH5G5sG7P5qMz_a3vJkAixKyPt__wAOjdbbsJe4BnvjZX95VLMoPZKU9rGFl5eJWq9 4HH7ax78QjIYdL4Wiqz7BDt9VxEtwljID2E8prDWg_fhS45f2rjs0h8GVL1sTzF2pphGmzte2fpM fH526fvdV.N_BYadxf70bEw_swy68EllVru0_yijgBY6fis8eWGk40Db.OXtLMHs7IYKhtMjLqLC AegWyyfGvDS7vRGEDPwPVYDiZwksxAERtakEeJXEUxsUe4FLoQkTTauhFiSFaOzXe9fKr4J4PkFh 2xPm7eyQQwFC0dRf7zkv_TfCr8jD5UW0HHphBeQ8.U5aq2wdWFOTJ7WFZT.1xjFvAe0GpxOuNygw J1q_IavZlIhp4i1mnNMtP3KPLSTeFngCQQlGYPLer9DP_2tAMoT4s18ezKlIGc4rmz9zZyR21Hyl hzH_Blxt6RNtNXHfBrGzDV6M8sOCti32mat40Rm5mnqkWRYjGGv2VVGqWqk.Isno._4GTdaf50hr mLL144U82XmwXpa.U.KDw..kNSsLFTm7A87oUqZZFE._lhxxZi8Gxh8o5MIMGvwSLYiA2Q9UI8wz xyyNn8WNtzTUbrDLVAbnm8_ggajM_LCES68FpUNlAE Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 19:49:02 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp422.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ed399394b6c0ecaaf8910193f1163846; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 19:48:57 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <837dt0f936.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16583 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.129.124; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic309-14.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/11 15:49:02 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255234 Archived-At: On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 09:43:09PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:00:41 +0000 >> From: Gregory Heytings >> cc: casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> > How would they even understand the doc strings without knowing what's a >> > buffer and what's a window? We have the Glossary section in the manual, >> > for that very reason. >> >> Again my point of view is: what are the most essential things that a user >> needs to know to use Emacs if we have no more than three minutes? The >> point is to create a minimal configuration wizard / guided tour to >> introduce them to the most essential things and help them to create a >> minimal configuration with which they would feel "at home", instead of >> having the "this is weird" feeling. > >That is a very different goal from that of our tutorial (or any good >tutorial, IMO). A tutorial should present the important workings of >the tool it describes, which includes all the basic operations and >ideas. > >A user who has no more than 3 minutes can just start typing and use >the menus for the rest. I believe Emacs supports all the features >such a user can expect: cursor motion with arrows and PageUp/PageDown, >text insertion and deletion, saving via the menus, etc. > >But if you think such "3-minute users" need a document to get them >started, by all means, write such a document. It is not what the >tutorial attempts to do, though. > Lets say that the problem is the unfamiliar way how emacs work in some aspects. In this list is repeated constantly that we shouldn't do this or that; or use a such set of bindings, colors, or methods just because the other editors do. So the only way to keep that is enforcing a learning curve because very little users will arrive trained in "the emacs way". If a user opens any editor around he never looks into the menus for copy or paste, but just right-click and a panel or C-c and C-v as they are standard anywhere else. I don't like to enable CUA mode by default, but start emacs and work is not so easy so if a user only have 3 minutes to start he will open gedit, kwire, kate or geany and everything works as expected in those 3 minutes. >> You mention "doc strings", but why on earth would a user who just started >> using Emacs read doc strings? > >To learn more about Emacs, of course. > I said that, 5-10 minutes is a bit better than 3. IMO the Mike's videos are the perfect format. Maybe the only problem is the emacs window size on the screen and that they are more oriented to the external packages than in the internals.