From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: ghe@sdf.org,casouri@gmail.com,emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:33:03 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <F113CCFC-9E20-4028-B361-F9C60E85AE86@aol.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <83zh5vedm8.fsf@gnu.org>
On September 12, 2020 8:02:55 AM GMT+02:00, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 21:48:52 +0200
>> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
>> Cc: Gregory Heytings <ghe@sdf.org>, casouri@gmail.com,
>emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> >But if you think such "3-minute users" need a document to get them
>> >started, by all means, write such a document. It is not what the
>> >tutorial attempts to do, though.
>> >
>>
>> Lets say that the problem is the unfamiliar way how emacs work in
>some
>> aspects.
>
>Like what? please be more specific, otherwise it's very hard to
>understand what you have in mind.
>
Like right click panel and cua. I don't like any of those, but my point is that in 3 minutes is hard to face that none of them are there as expected.
>> In this list is repeated constantly that we shouldn't do this
>> or that; or use a such set of bindings, colors, or methods just
>because
>> the other editors do. So the only way to keep that is enforcing a
>> learning curve because very little users will arrive trained in "the
>> emacs way".
>
>Once again: most basic things people expect from an editor "just work"
>in Emacs OOTB.
>
>> If a user opens any editor around he never looks into the menus for
>copy
>> or paste, but just right-click and a panel or C-c and C-v as they are
>> standard anywhere else.
>
>So this is about CUA-like key bindings?
I just said explicitly that I don't like Cua mode. Even when M-w and the others are not really better IMO.
> or is there anything else?
The very usefull right click panel.
>
>> I don't like to enable CUA mode by default, but start emacs and work
>is
>> not so easy so if a user only have 3 minutes to start he will open
>> gedit, kwire, kate or geany and everything works as expected in those
>3
>> minutes.
>
>Fine, then I guess this is what the "3-minute tutorial" should say.
>
IMO we should focus in at least 5-10 minutes users more than 3 minutes ones. Because to focus in the 3 minutes ones emacs will require at least a permanent visible bindings bar somewhere (like nano) or change many things to make them familiar for external users. And we won't do that I think :/
>> >> You mention "doc strings", but why on earth would a user who just
>started
>> >> using Emacs read doc strings?
>> >
>> >To learn more about Emacs, of course.
>> >
>>
>> I said that, 5-10 minutes is a bit better than 3. IMO the Mike's
>videos
>> are the perfect format. Maybe the only problem is the emacs window
>size
>> on the screen and that they are more oriented to the external
>packages
>> than in the internals.
>
>To have video tutorials for these purposes is perfectly okay. I hope
>we will be able to have them soon.
>
>Thanks.
Have you seen any of the mike's videos? IMO they are already useful for new users. Let's hope he port them to peertube.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-09-12 9:33 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 173+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-09-08 18:48 Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-08 19:30 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-08 21:30 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09 3:51 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-09 14:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-09 14:24 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-09 15:07 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-09-09 16:09 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-09 16:23 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09 16:06 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-11 4:13 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11 4:13 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11 4:41 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09 7:57 ` tomas
2020-09-10 2:40 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10 3:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 8:29 ` tomas
2020-09-10 9:08 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-10 9:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 10:08 ` tomas
2020-09-10 9:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 10:11 ` tomas
2020-09-11 4:18 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11 7:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 13:47 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-12 3:22 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-12 3:46 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-10 8:28 ` tomas
2020-09-09 14:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 23:20 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 0:20 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Stefan Kangas
2020-09-11 8:15 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 9:47 ` Interactive guide for new users Phil Sainty
2020-09-11 14:04 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 14:38 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 14:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 15:20 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 15:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 15:46 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 15:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 16:00 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 17:03 ` Interactive guide for new users Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 17:23 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 17:36 ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 17:39 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 18:43 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 19:48 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 6:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 9:33 ` Ergus [this message]
2020-09-13 12:13 ` Interactive guide for new users Philip K.
2020-09-11 18:59 ` FW: Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Drew Adams
2020-09-11 17:47 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-11 17:53 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 18:04 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-12 11:16 ` Interactive guide for new users Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-09-12 14:26 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 14:55 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 15:10 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 15:18 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-13 18:12 ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-11 14:02 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Yuan Fu
2020-09-12 9:31 ` Interactive guide for new users Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 9:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 10:35 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 10:52 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 10:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 11:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-12 12:00 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 12:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 13:56 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 14:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 12:54 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 12:16 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 12:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 13:18 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 13:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 14:17 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 14:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 14:55 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 16:25 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 17:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 17:21 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-12 17:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 18:36 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 20:05 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 0:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 2:35 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 17:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 22:10 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-14 11:20 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-14 23:42 ` E
2020-09-15 7:40 ` Ergus
2020-09-15 23:40 ` E
2020-09-15 12:10 ` Stephen Leake
2020-09-15 12:22 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-15 23:33 ` E
2020-09-13 18:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 18:20 ` Tim Van den Langenbergh
2020-09-13 21:10 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 7:14 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-13 14:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-13 16:38 ` John Yates
2020-09-13 16:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-13 17:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-14 12:41 ` John Yates
2020-09-14 15:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-15 1:42 ` John Yates
2020-09-15 7:00 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-16 3:30 ` John Yates
2020-09-16 10:14 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-15 14:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-14 22:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 17:47 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-14 14:17 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-26 9:16 ` Elias Mårtenson
2020-09-26 9:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 14:38 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 15:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 16:33 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 16:39 ` Andreas Schwab
2020-09-26 16:57 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 16:01 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-12 11:02 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 12:12 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-14 10:52 ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-19 15:20 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-19 17:02 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-21 14:50 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-21 16:07 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-21 21:40 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-21 23:03 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-22 3:40 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-22 9:06 ` Interactive guide for new users Philip K.
2020-09-23 3:40 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-23 12:49 ` Philip K.
2020-09-24 1:32 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26 3:13 ` Okam
2020-09-22 14:06 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-28 9:24 ` Po Lu
2020-09-29 3:29 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-19 17:16 ` Philip K.
2020-09-19 17:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 18:09 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-19 18:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 21:43 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-20 5:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-21 22:15 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-22 13:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-23 12:54 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-23 13:28 ` Caio Henrique
2020-09-23 13:42 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-23 14:16 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-09-23 14:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-23 23:14 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-30 13:20 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-30 14:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 17:53 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-20 9:26 ` Philip K.
2020-09-21 21:48 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-11 6:45 ` Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 8:51 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-11 8:59 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 13:52 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 14:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 14:27 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-09 2:01 ` Nick Savage
2020-09-09 14:48 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-10 2:36 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10 10:07 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-10 17:28 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-10 21:17 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
[not found] <<875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com>
[not found] ` <<D09D40C2-FF5C-4D1B-A030-C710297C1AE0@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<CADwFkm=GQqZ2e07QuC582T-MNhi1Xo4OPsMTYbQHH9gD7h6QnA@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<alpine.NEB.2.22.394.2009120917260453.23267@sdf.lonestar.org>
[not found] ` <<83d02re2uk.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-09-12 16:25 ` Interactive guide for new users Drew Adams
2020-09-13 4:34 ` Ihor Radchenko
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