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From: <tomas@tuxteam.de>
To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 09:57:50 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20200909075750.GA31381@tuxteam.de> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAOXmYq-h9PZabD6Sj_ZrBfHOg0g9fc4Y77QWVDDaa3c4ZSMw6Q@mail.gmail.com>

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On Tue, Sep 08, 2020 at 04:30:57PM -0500, Praharsh Suryadevara wrote:
> Hello,
> I've been an emacs user for ~3 years. While I'm now used to the defaults, I
> do remember in some detail, the pain it took me to get used to the
> keybindings in vanilla emacs .
> 
> I think the sore points other than the undo/redo, were C-f not being bound
> to find [...]

But that's it, exactly. I moved to Emacs from vi (later elvis, vim).
I /knew/ it was going to be painful, but I never complained `find'
wasn't bound to '/'.

It's difficult to draw the line between "make more user-friendly"
and "do as I am accustomed to". The latter will end up following
some trend which, compared to Emacs's longevity, will always be a
fad.

Witness: CUA. Most people think these days "CUA" means: "Copy" [1]
is bound to "C-c", "Cut" [2] is bound to "C-x" and "Paste" [3] to
"C-v".

But according to IBM's "Common User Architecture" (aka "CUA" [4]),
it's "C-Insert", "S-Del", and "S-Ins" respectively. But Apple's [5]
infantilised version ("C-x" is the "scissors", etc.) somehow snuck
in.

Don't get me wrong -- I do recognise value in trying to harmonise
user interfaces across applications. But consistency whithin one
application and stability over time are also values to be taken
into account. In the end, it will be a balance act, with one (or
several, that's what distributions are for!) equilibrium points,
which themselves vary over time.

What Emacs can do is to provide a solid base and all the freedom
of configurability. And Emacs does deliver on that.

Cheers

[1] called in Emacs "kill-ring-save"
[2] called in Emacs "kill"
[3] "yank", in Emacs
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access
[5] I guess they stole it from Smalltalk, as everything
   else, too.

 - t

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  parent reply	other threads:[~2020-09-09  7:57 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 182+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-09-08 18:48 Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-08 19:30 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-08 21:30   ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09  3:51     ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-09 14:18       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-09 14:24         ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-09 15:07           ` Stefan Kangas
2020-09-09 16:09             ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-09 16:23               ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09 16:06           ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-11  4:13             ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11  4:13         ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11  4:41           ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09  7:57     ` tomas [this message]
2020-09-10  2:40       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10  3:32         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10  8:29           ` tomas
2020-09-10  9:08             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-10  9:34               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 10:08                 ` tomas
2020-09-10  9:30             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 10:11               ` tomas
2020-09-11  4:18           ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11  7:06             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 13:47               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-12  3:22               ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-12  3:46                 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-10  8:28         ` tomas
2020-09-09 14:01   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 23:20     ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-11  0:20       ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Stefan Kangas
2020-09-11  8:15         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11  9:47           ` Interactive guide for new users Phil Sainty
2020-09-11 14:04           ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 14:38             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 14:49               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 15:20                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 15:28                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 15:46                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 15:51                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 16:00                         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 17:03                           ` Interactive guide for new users Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 17:23                             ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 17:36                               ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 17:39                                 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 18:43                           ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 19:48                             ` Ergus
2020-09-12  6:02                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12  9:33                                 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 12:13                                   ` Interactive guide for new users Philip K.
2020-09-11 18:59                           ` FW: Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Drew Adams
2020-09-11 17:47                       ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-11 17:53                         ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 18:04                         ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-12 11:16                         ` Interactive guide for new users Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-09-12 14:26                           ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 14:55                             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 15:10                               ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 15:18                                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-13 18:12               ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-11 14:02         ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Yuan Fu
2020-09-12  9:31         ` Interactive guide for new users Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12  9:55           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 10:35             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 10:52               ` Ergus
2020-09-12 10:58               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 11:34                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-12 12:00                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 12:21                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 13:56                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 14:07                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 12:54                   ` Ergus
2020-09-12 12:16                 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 12:34                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 13:18                     ` Ergus
2020-09-12 13:43                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 14:17                         ` Ergus
2020-09-12 14:36                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 14:55                             ` Ergus
2020-09-12 16:25                             ` Ergus
2020-09-12 17:17                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 17:21                                 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-12 17:39                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 18:36                                   ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 20:05                                     ` Ergus
2020-09-13  0:01                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13  2:35                           ` Ergus
2020-09-13 17:56                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 22:10                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-14 11:20                                 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-14 23:42                                   ` E
2020-09-15  7:40                                     ` Ergus
2020-09-15 23:40                                       ` E
2020-09-15 12:10                                   ` Stephen Leake
2020-09-15 12:22                                     ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-15 23:33                                     ` E
2020-09-13 18:01                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 18:20                             ` Tim Van den Langenbergh
2020-09-13 21:10                               ` Ergus
2020-09-13  7:14                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-13 14:04                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-13 16:38                             ` John Yates
2020-09-13 16:51                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-13 17:39                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-14 12:41                                 ` John Yates
2020-09-14 15:28                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-15  1:42                                     ` John Yates
2020-09-15  7:00                                       ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-16  3:30                                         ` John Yates
2020-09-16 10:14                                           ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-15 14:15                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-14 22:28                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 17:47                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-14 14:17                             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-26  9:16               ` Elias Mårtenson
2020-09-26  9:31                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 14:38                 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 15:13                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 16:33                     ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 16:39                   ` Andreas Schwab
2020-09-26 16:57                     ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 16:01                 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-12 11:02             ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 12:12               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-14 10:52               ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-19 15:20         ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-19 17:02           ` Drew Adams
2020-09-21 14:50             ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-21 16:07               ` Drew Adams
2020-09-21 21:40                 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-21 23:03                   ` Drew Adams
2020-09-22  3:40                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-22  9:06                   ` Interactive guide for new users Philip K.
2020-09-23  3:40                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-23 12:49                       ` Philip K.
2020-09-24  1:32                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26  3:13                           ` Okam
2020-09-22 14:06                   ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-28  9:24                   ` Po Lu
2020-09-29  3:29                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-19 17:16           ` Philip K.
2020-09-19 17:25             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 18:09               ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-19 18:39                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 21:43                   ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-20  5:52                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-21 22:15                       ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-22 13:56                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-23 12:54                           ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-23 13:28                             ` Caio Henrique
2020-09-23 13:42                               ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-23 14:16                             ` Stefan Kangas
2020-09-23 14:58                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-23 23:14                               ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-30 13:20                                 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-30 14:11                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 17:53             ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-20  9:26               ` Philip K.
2020-09-21 21:48                 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-11  6:45       ` Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11  8:51         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-11  8:59           ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 13:52         ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 14:01           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 14:27           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-09  2:01 ` Nick Savage
2020-09-09 14:48   ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-10  2:36 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10 10:07   ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-10 17:28     ` Drew Adams
2020-09-10 21:17       ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
     [not found] <<875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com>
     [not found] ` <<D09D40C2-FF5C-4D1B-A030-C710297C1AE0@gmail.com>
     [not found]   ` <<83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]     ` <<8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com>
     [not found]       ` <<CADwFkm=GQqZ2e07QuC582T-MNhi1Xo4OPsMTYbQHH9gD7h6QnA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]         ` <<alpine.NEB.2.22.394.2009120917260453.23267@sdf.lonestar.org>
     [not found]           ` <<83d02re2uk.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-09-12 16:25             ` Interactive guide for new users Drew Adams
2020-09-13  4:34               ` Ihor Radchenko
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-09-08 20:10 Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-08 17:28 Yuan Fu
2020-09-10 11:51 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-10 12:51   ` tomas
2020-09-15  7:11 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-09-15  8:21   ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-15 10:13     ` Andreas Röhler
2020-09-15 10:34       ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-15 11:22     ` Göktuğ Kayaalp

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