bug#4743: fundamental mode not sufficiently fundamental yet

bug#4743: fundamental mode not sufficiently fundamental yet

[Harald Dunkel]

Hi folks,

If I press [tab] in fundamental mode, then emacs doesn't jump to the
next tab, but to the position of the next non-space char of the
previous line. Sometimes this is really annoying.


According to the documentation this cannot be switched off:

"The least specialized major mode is called "Fundamental mode".  This
mode has no mode-specific redefinitions or variable settings, so that
each Emacs command behaves in its most general manner, and each option
is in its default state."


Would it be possible to introduce some kind of "raw fundamental mode",
telling Emacs to not look at the indentation on other lines?


Regards

Harri

bug#4743: fundamental mode not sufficiently fundamental yet

[Stefan Monnier]

> If I press [tab] in fundamental mode, then Emacs doesn't jump to the
> next tab, but to the position of the next non-space char of the
> previous line.  Sometimes this is really annoying.

You want to change the default value of indent-line-function.
Or you want to use some other mode (e.g. paragraph-indent-text-mode).


        Stefan

bug#4743: fundamental mode not sufficiently fundamental yet

[Harald Dunkel]

On 10/18/09 03:14, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> If I press [tab] in fundamental mode, then Emacs doesn't jump to the
>> next tab, but to the position of the next non-space char of the
>> previous line.  Sometimes this is really annoying.
>
> You want to change the default value of indent-line-function.
> Or you want to use some other mode (e.g. paragraph-indent-text-mode).
>

Actually I just want to enter some text without having to care about
different modes or redefining some internal functions. Thats why I am
using fundamental mode.  If I press [tab], then the cursor should move
to the next tab stop, which should be every 8th column, as usual. All
the Emacs clones I tried (mg, zile, jove) work this way. Even xemacs'
fundamental mode works better wrt tab stops (IMHO).

iNot to mention vi.

But maybe I am too blind to see. Is there a more basic mode for Emacs
than "fundamental"?


Regards

Harri

bug#4743: fundamental mode not sufficiently fundamental yet

[Stefan Monnier]

> Actually I just want to enter some text without having to care about
> different modes or redefining some internal functions.

Looks like maybe you don't want Emacs.

> then the cursor should move to the next tab stop, which should be
> every 8th column, as usual.

That's not what the TAB key does usually in Emacs.

> All the Emacs clones I tried (mg, zile, jove) work this way.

It turns out that Emacs's fundamental mode used to behave in this way at
some point in the past.  But most like those "micro emacsen" do it this
way simply because they want to keep things simple.

> But maybe I am too blind to see. Is there a more basic mode for Emacs
> than "fundamental"?

I told you there's paragraph-indent-text-mode which may fit your bill.
Otherwise (setq-default indent-fill-function 'indent-to-left-margin) is
another way to get what you want (by reverting to the older behavior,
which is also probably the one still used in XEmacs).


        Stefan

bug#4743: fundamental mode not sufficiently fundamental yet

[Harald Dunkel]

On 10/19/09 04:04, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> Actually I just want to enter some text without having to care about
>> different modes or redefining some internal functions.
>
> Looks like maybe you don't want Emacs.
>

Thats surely not the case. I am using Emacs since the early 90s.
Sometimes I just don't want any context sensitive operations.
Looking at other lines for indentation is surely something what
one would see as a special mode. It is not fundamental.

>> then the cursor should move to the next tab stop, which should be
>> every 8th column, as usual.
>
> That's not what the TAB key does usually in Emacs.
>

I understand, but thats what the tab key in all the other editors
does, even in ed and good ol' Wordstar. Only emacs wants to get
special treatment.

>> All the Emacs clones I tried (mg, zile, jove) work this way.
>
> It turns out that Emacs's fundamental mode used to behave in this way at
> some point in the past.  But most like those "micro emacsen" do it this
> way simply because they want to keep things simple.
>

And you disagree with Kiss?

>> But maybe I am too blind to see. Is there a more basic mode for Emacs
>> than "fundamental"?
>
> I told you there's paragraph-indent-text-mode which may fit your bill.
> Otherwise (setq-default indent-fill-function 'indent-to-left-margin) is
> another way to get what you want (by reverting to the older behavior,
> which is also probably the one still used in XEmacs).
>

The paragraph-indent-text-mode seems to be more close to what I need.
Setting the (undocumented?) indent-fill-function did not work.


Regards

Harri

bug#4743: fundamental mode not sufficiently fundamental yet

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Looks like maybe you don't want Emacs.
> Thats surely not the case. I am using Emacs since the early 90s.

I'm glad to hear it.

>> It turns out that Emacs's fundamental mode used to behave in this way at
>> some point in the past.  But most like those "micro emacsen" do it this
>> way simply because they want to keep things simple.
> And you disagree with Kiss?

KISS results in different final products depending on the context.
E.g. in the case of Emacs, changing indent-line-function's default from
`indent-to-left-margin' to `indent-relative' made the code simpler
(after all, the complexity associated with indent-relative can't be
avoided, so the driving decision was "which choice is the most common"
so as to reduce the amount of work to be done in each major mode).

> Setting the (undocumented?) indent-fill-function did not work.

It's because it was a typo.  My previous email had the right name:
indent-line-function.


        Stefan

bug#4743: fundamental mode not sufficiently fundamental yet

[Andreas Schwab]

Harald Dunkel <harald.dunkel@t-online.de> writes:

> Thats surely not the case. I am using Emacs since the early 90s.
> Sometimes I just don't want any context sensitive operations.
> Looking at other lines for indentation is surely something what
> one would see as a special mode. It is not fundamental.

"Fundamental" just means "using all global, default values".  It does
not necessarily mean "no bells and whistles".

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

bug#4743: fundamental mode not sufficiently fundamental yet

[Glenn Morris]

I don't see a need to keep open this particular report, which was marked
"wontfix" some time ago.

Andreas Schwab wrote:

> "Fundamental" just means "using all global, default values".  It does
> not necessarily mean "no bells and whistles".