From: "João Távora" <joaotavora@gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: larsi@gnus.org, 62720@debbugs.gnu.org, rpluim@gmail.com,
philipk@posteo.net, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca
Subject: bug#62720: 29.0.60; Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 20:31:34 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALDnm52wJ64Nz_HN75NTYNXuSfRtPNWPHsNJK3BE0VGcLtNBWg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <83v8hye0hh.fsf@gnu.org>
On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 8:18 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> > From: João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com>
> > Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 20:03:31 +0100
> > Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rpluim@gmail.com, 62720@debbugs.gnu.org,
> > larsi@gnus.org, philipk@posteo.net
> >
> > > > OK, but who does this and why, in your opinion? And who has
> > > > `(package-install seq)` in their config and why? And won't they get
> > > > the same updated 'seq' "accidentally" if they install anything else
> > > > that depends on newer seq, which is likely a lot of non-core
> > > > packages and likely to grow?
> > >
> > > I don't know. But we did have core packages that were also on ELPA
> > > before Emacs 29, and people did get along with that. So much so that
> > > I don't recall any complaints about this, definitely not complaints
> > > that claimed package.el is as badly broken as you seem to represent.
> >
> > I think it's simply and clearly because there weren't any non-core
> > packages that migrated to core before. Were there? Certainly
> > none with as fast a release cycle like Eglot's.
>
> You are missing the point. My point is that users of all those other
> core packages are used to the current situation, where package-install
> doesn't update the built-ins. They have workflows based on that.
> Those are the workflows that I don't want to risk breaking.
The only workflows that traverse this use case I can think of:
1. they routinely invoke a useless M-x package-install RET seq RET
, it prints "already installed" and they breathe a daily sigh of relief.
2. they have `(package-install 'seq)` somewhere in their init file
which runs daily and does nothing.
> Once the discussion with Philip runs to its completion, we _will_ have
> in Emacs 29.1 a way of upgrading built-ins, only not by default, but
> by an explicit user request. Maybe this is not ideal, but we don't
> have time to find out what is ideal for all those involved, and this
> partial solution allows to get the job done without risking to break
> anyone's workflow. So this is a good compromise, given the time and
> the constraints, at least from my POV.
There is already this way, that was never in question. Package menu,
M-: or anything else, it's not _that_ hard. But it's a shame that
the canonical use-package recipe for Eglot (or for use-package itself)
it will break.
Looking at the patches, it seems, from my POV, that using a prefix
argument and an extra customization option is much, much more
complicated than a simple whitelist or blacklist that the user
needn't ever see.
> > I _am_ realizing that, and even if I think the risks are minuscule,
> > I'm providing solutions that mitigate them. And -- responsibly, I
> > think -- pointing to the fact that the risk surface is much larger
> > than you may think it is.
> I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the risks. And
> eventually, it is my responsibility to do this job, so my assessment
> of that is what counts more. I've heard all of your arguments (and
> also those of others), and considered all of them, and I still don't
> think the risk is high enough to justify the potentially-breaking
> changes that you propose, not on the release branch, not this late
> into the release cycle.
And even though I also disagree, equally respectfully, with your
assessment of the risks, and still I'm providing a solution that
eliminates them totally.
> > I will work and prepare that patch if you promise to at least
> > look at the code, follow the logic with me and consider the
> > patch for backporting if it's as safe as relying on a simple
> > `(if (memq package package-safely-upgradeable-builtins) ...)`
>
> Backporting can be considered for Emacs 29.2, not before that.
> Hopefully, by that time we will also have more data points regarding
> the various uses of this, in particular with Eglot, so that our
> decisions will be more informed.
OK. Fair enough. If there's half a chance for 29.2 I guess I can work on
it. Not today though.
João
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-04-14 19:31 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 278+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-04-07 22:12 bug#62720: 29.0.60; Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot João Távora
2023-04-08 1:03 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-08 10:43 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-08 10:48 ` João Távora
2023-04-08 14:42 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-08 15:25 ` João Távora
2023-04-08 15:45 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-10 16:01 ` João Távora
2023-04-10 18:13 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-11 11:02 ` João Távora
2023-04-11 11:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-11 12:52 ` João Távora
2023-04-11 17:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-11 18:31 ` João Távora
2023-04-11 18:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-11 20:08 ` João Távora
2023-04-11 20:25 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 5:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 7:58 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 8:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 8:51 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 10:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 10:38 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 11:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 11:00 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 11:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 11:15 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 11:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 11:35 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 11:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 12:01 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 12:00 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-12 12:18 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 12:28 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-12 12:55 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 12:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 13:42 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-12 14:11 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-12 14:14 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 14:17 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-12 14:20 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 15:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 16:13 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 16:16 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 16:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 17:14 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 17:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 17:43 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 19:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 19:39 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 5:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-13 7:38 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 8:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-13 11:23 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 15:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-13 15:10 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 15:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-13 17:49 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 18:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-13 18:49 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-14 10:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 12:34 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-14 12:56 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 13:52 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-14 15:34 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 15:52 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-14 16:05 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 16:28 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-14 16:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-14 16:40 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 16:53 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-14 17:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 18:32 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 18:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 19:03 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 19:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 19:31 ` João Távora [this message]
2023-04-14 16:12 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-14 16:31 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 16:54 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-14 17:32 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 18:27 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-14 18:39 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 19:33 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-14 19:48 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 17:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 18:44 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 18:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 19:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-14 19:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 19:21 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-14 19:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 19:34 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 19:20 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 19:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 19:46 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 20:04 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 8:35 ` João Távora
2023-04-15 10:40 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 10:44 ` João Távora
2023-04-15 12:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-15 9:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 10:24 ` João Távora
2023-04-15 10:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 11:19 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2023-04-15 12:33 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-15 13:36 ` João Távora
2023-04-15 16:53 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 21:16 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2023-04-16 10:23 ` João Távora
2023-04-16 20:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-16 21:54 ` João Távora
2023-04-17 2:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-17 2:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-18 1:25 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-18 11:44 ` João Távora
2023-04-18 20:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-18 20:56 ` João Távora
2023-04-18 21:06 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-18 21:15 ` João Távora
2023-04-18 21:20 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 12:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 13:04 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 13:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 14:04 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 16:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 16:17 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 15:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 16:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 16:23 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 16:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 17:27 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 18:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 18:27 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 18:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 17:23 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 17:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <83r0sh8i1q.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <35638c9d-e13f-fad8-5f95-ea03d65d4aa2@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <CALDnm53J-HnUz26thrMbFXEARE8yiOJiBb2M75Qm3KKnxRxWzQ@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <87a5z3izst.fsf@web.de>
[not found] ` <83v8hr7qk9.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <CALDnm51zZw4JhnxCEUApN0N-90c08d-jOct5i2xcTMOhBb78=g@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <83pm7z7nkc.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <4b63ef62-5e1c-3dcf-ec7b-06b69e79133b@gutov.dev>
[not found] ` <83o7nj7mfn.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <bd688d7c-1588-43f3-49db-c90d1312fad8@gutov.dev>
[not found] ` <CALDnm5341n=_VtRH2JxsDEH=7uwdsaCQMSCOn+jzDpfnh1qm7A@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <556e0fbb-215e-c11d-0e8b-73e97441abbb@gutov.dev>
[not found] ` <CALDnm52=KRVBn3Zse2DDC-SMHGot0mRpYUEZ7FH5vmAVH4Rimw@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <e3408f6b-f050-a96d-c8c6-5f790cc90df4@gutov.dev>
2023-04-20 10:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 10:31 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 11:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 11:53 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 12:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 13:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 13:56 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 14:25 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 14:31 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 14:40 ` João Távora
2023-04-21 0:22 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 14:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 15:03 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 14:51 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-20 14:30 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 14:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 18:08 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-20 18:24 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-20 18:53 ` João Távora
2023-04-24 7:48 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-24 8:57 ` João Távora
2023-04-24 9:38 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-24 11:43 ` João Távora
2023-04-24 13:01 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-24 13:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-24 13:12 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-24 20:36 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-24 22:45 ` João Távora
2023-04-21 0:50 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-21 6:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-21 10:19 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-21 11:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-21 23:12 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 0:57 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 8:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 10:30 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 11:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 11:24 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 11:29 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 12:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 12:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 12:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 12:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 23:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-23 6:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-23 11:58 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-23 13:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-23 13:11 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-23 14:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-23 21:53 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-24 11:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-24 23:45 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-25 7:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-25 12:08 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-25 12:12 ` João Távora
2023-04-25 12:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-25 18:35 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-26 23:05 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-27 5:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-27 9:00 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-27 10:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-27 23:51 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-28 5:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-04 23:58 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-05 5:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-05 5:41 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-05 13:58 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-05-05 14:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-06 1:02 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-23 13:05 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-23 13:09 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 0:57 ` João Távora
2023-04-22 11:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 12:12 ` João Távora
2023-04-22 8:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 10:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 11:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 13:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 16:04 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-14 17:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 17:47 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-14 17:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 23:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-23 13:02 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-23 20:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-25 12:24 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-01 2:00 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-13 16:59 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-13 15:14 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 15:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-13 16:13 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-13 19:14 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-14 10:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 16:40 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 8:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 10:41 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 10:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 11:37 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 13:21 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 13:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 17:14 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 17:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 18:19 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 18:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-16 13:45 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-16 15:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-16 10:44 ` João Távora
2023-04-16 14:23 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2023-04-12 20:10 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 5:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 15:49 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-12 15:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 16:29 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 20:50 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-12 15:45 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-11 18:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-11 20:28 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 5:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 9:18 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 9:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 12:37 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 13:20 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-12 16:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-11 19:44 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-11 20:05 ` João Távora
2023-04-11 21:36 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-12 7:34 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-12 5:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 7:44 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-12 8:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 14:14 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-11 21:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-12 9:34 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 15:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-08 7:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-08 9:09 ` João Távora
2023-04-08 14:51 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-04-08 15:23 ` João Távora
2023-04-08 15:31 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-04-08 18:10 ` João Távora
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