bug#60639: Improvement to the Wording of GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

bug#60639: Improvement to the Wording of GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

[Xie Shynur]

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In the section 2.1 "Printed Representation and Read Syntax" (https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Printed-Representation.html), word "hash notation" is used to refer to the symbol "#".
But it may well confuse non-native English speakers, because the "hash" is also associated with "hash function".

A better name for "#" is "number sign".

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From d576b9ee6c824cf55b478c06a1f2644d8220d4be Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Shynur <one.last.kiss@outlook.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2023 03:32:00 +0800
Subject: [PATCH] better word for hash notation''

---
 doc/lispref/objects.texi | 8 ++++----
 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispref/objects.texi b/doc/lispref/objects.texi
index 99a3c07397..39be94b4a8 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/objects.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/objects.texi
@@ -79,10 +79,10 @@ syntax.  @xref{Read and Print}.
   In most cases, an object's printed representation is also a read
 syntax for the object.  However, some types have no read syntax, since
 it does not make sense to enter objects of these types as constants in
-a Lisp program.  These objects are printed in @dfn{hash notation},
-which consists of the characters @samp{#<}, a descriptive string
-(typically the type name followed by the name of the object), and a
-closing @samp{>}.  For example:
+a Lisp program.  These objects are printed in @dfn{hash notation}
+(also known as ``number sign''), which consists of the characters
+@samp{#<}, a descriptive string (typically the type name followed by
+the name of the object), and a closing @samp{>}.  For example:
 
 @example
 (current-buffer)
-- 
2.38.0.windows.1

bug#60639: Improvement to the Wording of GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

[Stefan Kangas]

tags 60639 wontfix
close 60639
thanks

Xie Shynur <one.last.kiss@outlook.com> writes:

> In the section 2.1 "Printed Representation and Read Syntax"
> (https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Printed-Representation.html),
> word "hash notation" is used to refer to the symbol "#".
> But it may well confuse non-native English speakers, because the "hash" is also associated with "hash function".
>
> A better name for "#" is "number sign".

I don't think "number sign" is very clear, and to be honest I think
our target audience should have to learn that "#" is called a hash.

So we won't be making this change.  Sorry.

Closing this as wontfix.

bug#60639: Improvement to the Wording of GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

[Drew Adams]

> > In the section 2.1 "Printed Representation and Read Syntax"
> > (.../elisp/Printed-Representation.html),
> > word "hash notation" is used to refer to the symbol "#".
> > But it may well confuse non-native English speakers, because 
> > the "hash"is also associated with "hash function".
> >
> > A better name for "#" is "number sign".
> 
> I don't think "number sign" is very clear, and to be honest I think
> our target audience should have to learn that "#" is called a hash.
> 
> So we won't be making this change.  Sorry.
> Closing this as wontfix.

If you're talking about this ASCII and Unicode
character: #, then Emacs (`C-u C-x =') tells us
the name for it is NUMBER SIGN:

Character code properties: customize what to show
  name: NUMBER SIGN
  general-category: Po (Punctuation, Other)
  decomposition: (35) ('#')

I do agree that "hash notation" is one way to
refer to use of the "hash" symbol.

But how about referring to the character by its
several names?  (It's also called "pound sign".)

A simple sentence such as this in Wikipedia can
make things clear:

 "The symbol # is known variously in
  English-speaking regions as the number sign,[1]
  hash,[2] or pound sign.[3]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_sign

bug#60639: Improvement to the Wording of GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

[Drew Adams]

(To be clear, with "How about...?" I meant
in the Elisp doc cited, not in the output of
`C-u C-x ='.)

bug#60639: Improvement to the Wording of GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

[Stefan Kangas]

reopen 60639
thanks

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> A simple sentence such as this in Wikipedia can
> make things clear:
>
>  "The symbol # is known variously in
>   English-speaking regions as the number sign,[1]
>   hash,[2] or pound sign.[3]"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_sign

Fair enough.

The patch actually just adds it as an alternative, so in that sense it's
already okay.  If there are no objections, I think we could install this
patch, then.  Let's see if there are any other opinions first though.

bug#60639: Improvement to the Wording of GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: "60639@debbugs.gnu.org" <60639@debbugs.gnu.org>
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2023 18:46:08 -0700
> 
> reopen 60639
> thanks
> 
> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
> 
> > A simple sentence such as this in Wikipedia can
> > make things clear:
> >
> >  "The symbol # is known variously in
> >   English-speaking regions as the number sign,[1]
> >   hash,[2] or pound sign.[3]"
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_sign
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
> The patch actually just adds it as an alternative, so in that sense it's
> already okay.  If there are no objections, I think we could install this
> patch, then.  Let's see if there are any other opinions first though.

I don't mind installing it, but IMO its wording needs some
improvement.  Here's what I suggest to install:

     In most cases, an object's printed representation is also a read
   syntax for the object.  However, some types have no read syntax, since
   it does not make sense to enter objects of these types as constants in
   a Lisp program.  These objects are printed in @dfn{hash notation},
   which consists of the characters @samp{#<}, a descriptive string
   (typically the type name followed by the name of the object), and a
   closing @samp{>}.  (This is called ``hash notation'' because it
   begins with the @samp{#} character, known as ``hash'' or ``number
   sign'').  For example:

The main point here is that "hash notation" is NOT what's known as
"number sign"; rather, the # character itself is known as "number
sign".

bug#60639: Improvement to the Wording of GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> I don't mind installing it, but IMO its wording needs some
> improvement.  Here's what I suggest to install:
>
>      In most cases, an object's printed representation is also a read
>    syntax for the object.  However, some types have no read syntax, since
>    it does not make sense to enter objects of these types as constants in
>    a Lisp program.  These objects are printed in @dfn{hash notation},
>    which consists of the characters @samp{#<}, a descriptive string
>    (typically the type name followed by the name of the object), and a
>    closing @samp{>}.  (This is called ``hash notation'' because it
>    begins with the @samp{#} character, known as ``hash'' or ``number
>    sign'').  For example:

Looks good to me.

bug#60639: Improvement to the Wording of GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2023 04:56:18 -0700
> Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, one.last.kiss@outlook.com, 60639@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I don't mind installing it, but IMO its wording needs some
> > improvement.  Here's what I suggest to install:
> >
> >      In most cases, an object's printed representation is also a read
> >    syntax for the object.  However, some types have no read syntax, since
> >    it does not make sense to enter objects of these types as constants in
> >    a Lisp program.  These objects are printed in @dfn{hash notation},
> >    which consists of the characters @samp{#<}, a descriptive string
> >    (typically the type name followed by the name of the object), and a
> >    closing @samp{>}.  (This is called ``hash notation'' because it
> >    begins with the @samp{#} character, known as ``hash'' or ``number
> >    sign'').  For example:
> 
> Looks good to me.

Now installed on the emacs-29 branch, and closing the bug.

bug#60639: Improvement to the Wording of GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

[Visuwesh]

[செவ்வாய் செப்டம்பர் 05, 2023] Stefan Kangas wrote:

> tags 60639 wontfix
> close 60639
> thanks
>
> Xie Shynur <one.last.kiss@outlook.com> writes:
>
>> In the section 2.1 "Printed Representation and Read Syntax"
>> (https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Printed-Representation.html),
>> word "hash notation" is used to refer to the symbol "#".
>> But it may well confuse non-native English speakers, because the "hash" is also associated with "hash function".
>>
>> A better name for "#" is "number sign".
>
> I don't think "number sign" is very clear, and to be honest I think
> our target audience should have to learn that "#" is called a hash.

FWIW, we never use "#" before numbers, we simply write "No." so "number
sign" is an alien term.  People here call "#" hash or hashtag.

> So we won't be making this change.  Sorry.
>
> Closing this as wontfix.