Re: [POLL] Should we accept breaking changes to get rid of Org libraries that perform side effects when loading?

[Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com>]

may i post a few notes?

i've had tehse previously.

1.

i rely on org-mouse for accessibility, as i often cannot use keyboard
at all, so there is a personal stake in having it be part of org so
that it is fully integrated.  of course i have no problem with having
to enable it instead of only load it.

it has /minor/ limbo status in that, for example, you can't set a
specific todo kw with the mouse, but that does not disturb me as much
as code rot.  see below.

2.

i don't use org-inlinetask enough to have a personal stake [in my case
i could make them siblings], but it seemed to me that it was never
sufficiently integrated into org, or had bugs, at least before parsers
became common.

if anybody does have a strong personal stake in them, like i do in 1.,
it might be desirable to make inline tasks, even breakingly, part of
org, merely to make sure that they fully integrate and test, as
opposed to limbo or code rot.

i would apply that principle to org-mouse, which being smallish and
about bindings is probably not too disruptive to be part of org.  i
defer the measurement of the disruptiveness of inline tasks to the
experts/stakeholders.

3.

istr loading org-id is or was what enables org-ids?  i'd rather have
org-id work by default.  OR maybe require activating.

4.

idk if related, but some settings in org must be done before loading.
i'd want a guideline in which, where possible, settings can be done
after loading.  this is because the user might need to go through
contortions in .emacs.  a user can do with-eval-after-load, but
with-eval-before-load sounds radically grotesque.


On 8/12/23, Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>
>> Yes, org-mouse modifies the behavior of certain key bindings. Not
>> directly, but by advising `org-open-at-point'.
>
> IIRC Emacs core libraries should not advise functions.
> This is something we should fix.
>
> Also, I'm not sure org-mouse.el has its place in Org's core nowadays.
>
>> It changes the very notion of that is a headline - the syntax definition
>> is altered. Very deeply nested headlines may become inlinetasks upon
>> loading org-inlinetask, touching all aspects of Org, not just editing.
>
> Same here, I'd be tempted to deny Org citizenship to inline tasks: it
> always felt like a nice hack for a niche use-case, but a hack anyway.
>
> If it modifies Org syntax in surprising ways, this is another argument
> for removing org-inlinetask.el from Org's core.  Remember: this is not
> to say that inline tasks are forbidden, it's just a message for users
> that inline tasks are something not maintained by Org's core team.
>
>> And it is not clear how to fix this. We did not make inlinetasks into
>> standard Org syntax in the past and now it is in the weird state when we
>> have (featurep 'org-inlinetask) sprinkled across the code just to
>> accommodate for this conditional syntax.
>
> Yes, this is ugly.
>
>> Inlinetasks are too similar in syntax with headlines, so it is
>> impossible to make the change backwards-compatible.
>>
>>>> With the current state of affairs, it is often enough to
>>>> (require 'org-library) to get things work. If we get rid of all the
>>>> possible side effects, users will have to adapt their configurations
>>>> and we will thus violate "I won't force you to update your
>>>> configuration."
>>>
>>> Defining new functions is a desirable "side-effect" of all Elisp
>>> library, I don't think we should worry abou this.
>>
>> Defining new functions by itself is not a big deal. But there are parts
>> of Org that alter their behavior depending on whether a feature is
>> loaded (like org-inlinetask) or depending whether certain function
>> symbol is defined (babel). Similarly, loading new link types re-defines
>> Org syntax in all the documents, affecting editing of everything that
>> looks like the loaded link type (org-ctags).
>
> I feel like the stakes are not the same for features like org-mouse.el
> and org-inlinetask.el and for core features like Babel libs and links.
> For the former, a decision should be made relatively to the usefulness
> of the feature; for the latter, loading libs (with side-effects on the
> syntax) is required by the design of the core feature at hand (Babel
> and links).
>
> I'd focus on solving the problem with org-mouse and org-inlinetasks
> first. Let's make a poll for org-mouse.el then for org-inlinetasks.el ?
>
> --
>  Bastien Guerry
>
>


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