From: Edouard Klein <edou@rdklein.fr>
To: guix-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Introducing Guix "Features"! (Was: Syntactic Diabetes)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 16:07:53 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87jzn1lrti.fsf@rdklein.fr> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87frycl3cm.fsf@lease-up.com>
Weighting in here, as small as my weight may be:
- re-using 'service' is IMHO a bad idea, it is a loaded term and the
expectation of a new reader is that a service is a SysV-init service:
it can be started, status-ed, stopped, restarted, and that's it. It
maps to a daemon running in the background. Basically a shepherd
service.
- The fact that systemd service maps in functionality to guix services
should be a huge redflag that the name is not good. Systemd sucks for
many reasons, and using confusing and incosistent language is one of
them.
- I agree that 'features' is a worse name, way too generic.
- Descriptive linguistics would consider the broader and
historical use of the term in the UNIX crowd from which guix users are
drawn, instead of the in-group use, which, despite being admitedly
well documented and rooted in the history of the project, is
overloading a close-but-not-exactly-matching term.
I can not emphasize enough how much those subtle unexpected problems
make adopting guix very hard.
I pushed through because I understand that the project is
fundamentally sound and worthwhile, but for a few years I have
made interns and colleague work with guix and saw their motivation die
by a thousand cuts because of confusing stuff like this.
Finding a better term would be a worthwhile endeavour, for ease of
adoption.
Maybe we should dedicate a session for it in the next guix days ?
- At os-declaration time, ALL guix services can be added, extended,
modified, and removed. Discovering this and the difficult-to-write
syntax that goes along with notably the extension, led me to the
syntactic sugar we were initially discussing.
- At os-reconfiguration time, SOME guix services will do their thing
- At os-boot time, SOME guix services will do their thing
- At os-running time, SOME (the shepherd kind) guix services can be
stopped, started, statused, doced, custom-actioned, and restared
- Understanding these behaviours may help use find an naming ontology
that would foster understanding and adoption.
Note that I don't disagree that service is a good name in *isolation*, I
just want to emphasize, as Attila did, that ignoring beginner's
expecations (however obsolete they may seem to be) is detrimental to the
project's adoption.
Cheers,
Edouard.
Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> writes:
> On Thu, Nov 30 2023, Attila Lendvai wrote:
>
>> the use of 'service' to describe two rather different abstractions: a
>> component of an OS vs. a deamon process run by shepherd.
>
> Indeed, the use of 'service' in much of Guix appears to be a grand
> misnomer. It probably occurred because the meaning expanded over time.
>
> It's like we are looking back in time at the Big Bang. Our "services"
> are the microwave echoes of Guix's initial, creative spark!
>
> Please consider a recent, helpful reply to help-guix. [1] Carlo
> mentioned the term "service" eleven times, but none of them referred to
> what I believe most readers of this message would call a service in
> other contexts. What's a newbie on help-guix to think?
>
> Should Guix services instead be called "features"?
>
> Those "features" are central to any operating system definition. Other
> choices like "provider" may not fully capture our collective uses
> throughout the code and the documentation. I am especially thinking
> about 'modify-features' and '%base-features'.
>
> Kind regards
> Felix
>
> [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2024-01/msg00213.html
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2024-02-18 15:24 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 30+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-03-23 8:06 A friendlier API for operating-system declarations Edouard Klein
2023-03-23 18:48 ` Josselin Poiret
2023-03-23 20:23 ` Edouard Klein
2023-03-23 21:05 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-04-13 9:42 ` Ludovic Courtès
2023-05-18 14:37 ` Edouard Klein
2023-11-24 21:43 ` Syntactic Diabetes (was Re: A friendlier API for operating-system declarations) Edouard Klein
2023-11-24 22:50 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-11-25 20:14 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-11-26 5:36 ` Michal Atlas
2023-11-26 16:49 ` Edouard Klein
2023-11-26 18:32 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-11-26 20:46 ` Edouard Klein
2023-11-27 21:09 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-11-29 20:12 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-11-29 23:39 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-11-30 11:16 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-12-01 18:18 ` Michal Atlas
2024-02-01 13:29 ` Introducing Guix "Features"! (Was: Syntactic Diabetes) Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2024-02-01 19:43 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2024-02-01 20:30 ` Attila Lendvai
2024-02-01 20:46 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2024-02-02 20:11 ` Attila Lendvai
2024-02-01 21:02 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2024-02-02 19:36 ` Attila Lendvai
2024-02-02 20:21 ` Vagrant Cascadian
2024-02-02 21:25 ` Attila Lendvai
2024-02-02 0:03 ` Introducing Guix "Features"! Carlo Zancanaro
2024-02-18 15:07 ` Edouard Klein [this message]
2023-12-09 10:12 ` Syntactic Diabetes (was Re: A friendlier API for operating-system declarations) Ludovic Courtès
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