[ART] Background image for GRUB

[ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

Hi,

This is a proposal for a GRUB background image:

http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix-grub.png

What do you think?


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Eric Bavier]

Felipe López writes:

> Hi,
>
> This is a proposal for a GRUB background image:
>
> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix-grub.png
>
> What do you think?

I really like it!  Thanks for the quick work.

I think the the red in the lower corners is a bit distracting though.
Could it perhaps be a more subtle color?

-- 
Eric Bavier

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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This is my first post to this list, so: greetings, developers who are
putting together the pieces of the one complete and true GNU operating
system!  I appreciate your work very much, and as a GNU maintainer, I
hope to start contributing soon to this GNU Guix effort.

Felipe López, I've taken a look at your previous works and I have to
congratulate and tell you I appreciate your artistic contributions to
the free software community at large and I'm very glad you're willing to
work with us to make the GNU system complete (for which, of course, good
artistic skills are needed).


Felipe López wrote:

> This is a proposal for a GRUB background image:
> 
> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix-grub.png
> 
> What do you think?

I think that if we want to make the GNU Guix distribution the one and
true GNU operating system, as a sort of marketing strategy, we need to
make every reference to the sense of operating system or software
distribution target the GNU brand.  References to GNU Guix should be
restricted to the sense of "the package manager of the GNU system".

Therefore, for that end, the background logo of the GRUB image, should
be the GNU head and at its right the word "GNU" shall be written.

What do people think?

-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;


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Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Andreas Enge]

On Tue, Nov 04, 2014 at 04:15:47PM -0600, Eric Bavier wrote:
> I think the the red in the lower corners is a bit distracting though.
> Could it perhaps be a more subtle color?

Or could it be more Guix specific? For instance, one of the coloured petals
of the guix logo in each corner, and the text part "Guix The GNU system" of
the logo in the last one (upper right, I would say)?

Just an idea of someone who is incapable of producing artwork...

Andreas

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 04/11/14 17:15, Eric Bavier wrote:
> 
> Felipe López writes:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is a proposal for a GRUB background image:
>>
>> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix-grub.png
>>
>> What do you think?
> 
> I really like it!  Thanks for the quick work.
> 
> I think the the red in the lower corners is a bit distracting though.
> Could it perhaps be a more subtle color?

I wanted to use the colors of Guix's logo somewhere, but I understand
what you say. I'll make some variations to see what works best.

Thanks,


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Andreas Enge]

One more comment: It would be good to have a high contrast in the grub screen,
but I do not know if this is related to the background image or needs to be
done in grub. For instance, white text on dark background would work better
than the current light gray text on dark background. Ideal from my point of
view would be black text on white background.

Andreas

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 04/11/14 17:25, Andreas Enge wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 04, 2014 at 04:15:47PM -0600, Eric Bavier wrote:
>> I think the the red in the lower corners is a bit distracting though.
>> Could it perhaps be a more subtle color?
> 
> Or could it be more Guix specific? For instance, one of the coloured petals
> of the guix logo in each corner, and the text part "Guix The GNU system" of
> the logo in the last one (upper right, I would say)?

I did that when I started :), but I found the result a bit more
distracting. That's why I decided to use only two colors from the Guix
logo: blue for the selected entry in the boot options and red|green for
ornaments (bottom corners). I'll include this in the variations I'll
post later, though.

> Just an idea of someone who is incapable of producing artwork...
> 
> Andreas
> 
> 

Thanks,

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 04/11/14 17:22, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro wrote:
> This is my first post to this list, so: greetings, developers who are
> putting together the pieces of the one complete and true GNU operating
> system!  I appreciate your work very much, and as a GNU maintainer, I
> hope to start contributing soon to this GNU Guix effort.
> 
> Felipe López, I've taken a look at your previous works and I have to
> congratulate and tell you I appreciate your artistic contributions to
> the free software community at large and I'm very glad you're willing to
> work with us to make the GNU system complete (for which, of course, good
> artistic skills are needed).

Thanks, Bruno :)

> Felipe López wrote:
> 
>> This is a proposal for a GRUB background image:
>>
>> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix-grub.png
>>
>> What do you think?
> 
> I think that if we want to make the GNU Guix distribution the one and
> true GNU operating system, as a sort of marketing strategy, we need to
> make every reference to the sense of operating system or software
> distribution target the GNU brand.  References to GNU Guix should be
> restricted to the sense of "the package manager of the GNU system".
> 
> Therefore, for that end, the background logo of the GRUB image, should
> be the GNU head and at its right the word "GNU" shall be written.
> 
> What do people think?

I would be glad if we can make that change and call the system GNU.


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 04/11/14 18:17, Andreas Enge wrote:
> One more comment: It would be good to have a high contrast in the grub screen,
> but I do not know if this is related to the background image or needs to be
> done in grub. For instance, white text on dark background would work better
> than the current light gray text on dark background. Ideal from my point of
> view would be black text on white background.
> 
> Andreas
> 
> 

Contrast is important, but at least in the screen I'm using the light
gray text is easy to read in the dark background.

I'll make a dark text on light background variation and post it tomorrow
with the others.

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Ludovic Courtès]

Thanks Felipe for the proposal, I like it!

Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org> skribis:

> I think that if we want to make the GNU Guix distribution the one and
> true GNU operating system, as a sort of marketing strategy, we need to
> make every reference to the sense of operating system or software
> distribution target the GNU brand.  References to GNU Guix should be
> restricted to the sense of "the package manager of the GNU system".

Agreed.  But note that RMS asked me to not insist on calling the OS “the
GNU system”, at least for now (AIUI, his main concern is that
GNU = GNU/Hurd, which is not currently supported.)

> Therefore, for that end, the background logo of the GRUB image, should
> be the GNU head and at its right the word "GNU" shall be written.

I was going to suggest adding a GNU head or “GNU” somewhere, at least.
Felipe, could you try that?

Ludo’.

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Andreas Enge]

On Tue, Nov 04, 2014 at 08:22:54PM -0200, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro wrote:
> I think that if we want to make the GNU Guix distribution the one and
> true GNU operating system, as a sort of marketing strategy, we need to
> make every reference to the sense of operating system or software
> distribution target the GNU brand.  References to GNU Guix should be
> restricted to the sense of "the package manager of the GNU system".

Actually, Guix is really much more than the package manager, it includes
the packages and the init system; so it makes sense to call Guix itself
the GNU system.

Andreas

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) wrote:

> Agreed.  But note that RMS asked me to not insist on calling the OS 
> “the GNU system”, at least for now (AIUI, his main concern is that 
> GNU = GNU/Hurd, which is not currently supported.)

I wonder if RMS has a good argument to justify his insistence in the
truthfulness of the equation 'GNU = GNU/Hurd' beyond the well-known
historical and technical ones.

From a strategical perspective, I fail to see why the distinction
between GNU/Linux-libre and GNU/Hurd could be of any relevance.  IMHO,
calling both simply "GNU" would help in the promotion of the GNU
project and its ideals.  That would not cause confusion, because GNU
would be defined as an operating system of multiple kernels, and
technical-inclined people would always know how to tell the difference
when needed or appropriate.

-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;



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Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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Andreas Enge wrote:

> Actually, Guix is really much more than the package manager, it 
> includes the packages and the init system; so it makes sense to call 
> Guix itself the GNU system.

For the GNU system we always have had a name and that's "GNU".

The init system, the package manager and the software packaged are
components of the GNU system.

GNU dmd is *not* part of Guix.  Likewise all the GNU programs packaged
to work with Guix are *not* part of Guix.

GNU Guix is a package manager, GNU is an operating system.  Please,
don't conflate the two.

-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom


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Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Andreas Enge]

On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 12:31:48PM -0200, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro wrote:
> GNU Guix is a package manager, GNU is an operating system.  Please,
> don't conflate the two.

Part of the fun in Guix is that it conflates and blurs boundaries, the
package descriptions, the dmd init system and the package manager are all
written in Guile and can be loaded into the same REPL.

Guix is the package manager _and_ the packages.
Like the Debian system is not just dpkg; Guix should be compared to
Debian, not dpkg/apt.

Andreas

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Omar Radwan]

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>I wonder if RMS has a good argument to justify his insistence in the
>truthfulness of the equation 'GNU = GNU/Hurd' beyond the well-known
>historical and technical ones.

I see where you get that idea from. Linux-libre is just a deblobbed fork of
the Linux kernel and the project which manages Linux-libre is a GNU
project,
But it's not the real GNU kernel, so it would still have to be called
GNU/Linux-libre, or GNU/Linux. And with Linux-libre, and almost all forked
projects that I have ever seen(MATE, Trinity, illumos, openIndiana, and the
*BSD's to some extent), there is usually too much code for the project to
handle, and it becomes a mess. The Linux kernel is approximately ~10
million lines of code, with a huge team, very hard to just fork it and make
it your own. While the HURD is much smaller(with Mach I think I've read
somewhere that it's about 200,000 lines of code) codebase wise. And it is
written in GNU C style and doesn't have many small "hack" or shortcuts
taken by the Linux kernel to achieve very fast speeds.
On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 6:09 AM, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <
oitofelix@gnu.org> wrote:

> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) wrote:
>
> > Agreed.  But note that RMS asked me to not insist on calling the OS
> > “the GNU system”, at least for now (AIUI, his main concern is that
> > GNU = GNU/Hurd, which is not currently supported.)
>
> I wonder if RMS has a good argument to justify his insistence in the
> truthfulness of the equation 'GNU = GNU/Hurd' beyond the well-known
> historical and technical ones.
>
> From a strategical perspective, I fail to see why the distinction
> between GNU/Linux-libre and GNU/Hurd could be of any relevance.  IMHO,
> calling both simply "GNU" would help in the promotion of the GNU
> project and its ideals.  That would not cause confusion, because GNU
> would be defined as an operating system of multiple kernels, and
> technical-inclined people would always know how to tell the difference
> when needed or appropriate.
>
> --
>  ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
> ((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
>  `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
>      \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;
>
>
>

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Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 05/11/14 09:09, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro wrote:
> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) wrote:
> 
>> Agreed.  But note that RMS asked me to not insist on calling the OS 
>> “the GNU system”, at least for now (AIUI, his main concern is that 
>> GNU = GNU/Hurd, which is not currently supported.)
> 
> I wonder if RMS has a good argument to justify his insistence in the
> truthfulness of the equation 'GNU = GNU/Hurd' beyond the well-known
> historical and technical ones.
> 
> From a strategical perspective, I fail to see why the distinction
> between GNU/Linux-libre and GNU/Hurd could be of any relevance.  IMHO,
> calling both simply "GNU" would help in the promotion of the GNU
> project and its ideals.  That would not cause confusion, because GNU
> would be defined as an operating system of multiple kernels, and
> technical-inclined people would always know how to tell the difference
> when needed or appropriate.
> 

I couldn't agree more.

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 05/11/14 08:26, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Thanks Felipe for the proposal, I like it!
> 
> Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org> skribis:
> 
>> I think that if we want to make the GNU Guix distribution the one and
>> true GNU operating system, as a sort of marketing strategy, we need to
>> make every reference to the sense of operating system or software
>> distribution target the GNU brand.  References to GNU Guix should be
>> restricted to the sense of "the package manager of the GNU system".
> 
> Agreed.  But note that RMS asked me to not insist on calling the OS “the
> GNU system”, at least for now (AIUI, his main concern is that
> GNU = GNU/Hurd, which is not currently supported.)
> 
>> Therefore, for that end, the background logo of the GRUB image, should
>> be the GNU head and at its right the word "GNU" shall be written.
> 
> I was going to suggest adding a GNU head or “GNU” somewhere, at least.
> Felipe, could you try that?

Sure, I'll try.


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Thompson, David]

On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro
<oitofelix@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> GNU dmd is *not* part of Guix.  Likewise all the GNU programs packaged
> to work with Guix are *not* part of Guix.

While GNU dmd is not part of the Guix source tree, Guix comes with
many dmd services.

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer]

Let me shamelessly indulge in this bikeshedding discussion:

Omar Radwan <toxemicsquire4@gmail.com> writes:
> But it's not the real GNU kernel, so it would still have to be called
> GNU/Linux-libre, or GNU/Linux.

Depends on whether we're talking about a "brand name" or "project name"
of sorts, or a "technical name."  

Even if the kernel component or any other number of components are
individually maintained by third parties, the effort/project of bundling
them together can alone justify giving the resulting OS a wholly
different name.  That would be the brand/project name, akin to Fedora,
CentOS, or Ubuntu.  (And also bad choices like "Arch Linux", "Gentoo
Linux", etc.  They can justify themselves by saying that they chose that
name for the project.)

The "technical" name is indeed GNU/Linux or GNU+Linux for all these
systems (with a suitable prefix or suffix to indicate the exact
configuration as well as any extra components), because those two
projects together provide figuratively 95% of all components *necessary*
to boot up and normally use the system (even if without X11 and without
many fancy programs, but at least with the POSIX toolbox).

I think it's a good idea to go with the GNU brand name.  But many people
will intuitively desire a more technical name, like "Guix GNU/Linux,"
naturally shortened to "Guix"...  I'm not sure if there's much we can do
about it, since "GNU" is awfully prone to confusion too so people will
avoid it.  To at least prevent confusion between the package manager and
The GNU System, we could sanction calling the latter GuixOS as an
alternative?

Taylan

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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Andreas Enge wrote:

> Part of the fun in Guix is that it conflates and blurs boundaries,
> the package descriptions, the dmd init system and the package manager
> are all written in Guile and can be loaded into the same REPL.

Extending your argument, every other software written for the Guile
interpreter should be called Guix.  What's absurd.  But even if we
ignore that, what's almost inconceivable, we would find that it is not
justified to attribute to Guix the "conflation and blur of
boundaries".  Why would Guix have more credit for that than Guile
itself?  Why not GNU dmd?  How about GNU Lilypond?  Just non-sense;
your argument is simply void of meaning, one can conclude whatever one
wants to.

> Guix is the package manager _and_ the packages.

Let's suppose you're right.

There are two possible interpretations; besides being a package
manager, Guix is:

1. Each one of the packages.  For instance, Guix is GNU Bash
and GNU Emacs.  That's absurd because Bash != Emacs, and therefore
Guix != Guix.

2. The set of all packages.  So Guix = GNU.
However by hypothesis Guix is a package manager (you have stated that),
and we know by a matter of fact that GNU is an operating system.
Therefore Guix != GNU.  Absurd.

As we came to contradictions within the only two possible
interpretations, your original statement must be incorrect.  Thus,
either Guix is *not* a package manager or Guix are *not* the packages.
Guix is clearly a package manager, so it must not be the packages.

> Like the Debian system is not just dpkg; Guix should be compared to 
> Debian, not dpkg/apt.

Let's *confabulate* about a dedicated Debian dpkg developer for whom
dpkg was the funniest and greatest project of all.  Although he was a
good programmer, he was often overwhelmed by the romantic and strong
feelings he had attached to dpkg.  For him, it was like if dpkg was
the soul of the Debian distribution: so much that in a philosophical
and metaphorical way, he knew deep inside his ego that dpkg was Debian
itself.

One day he got a message, addressed to the dpkg development list,
saying about the notorious and noble role of dpkg within the Debian
distribution.  Albeit the message had given due credit to his beloved
project, he didn't felt right about it --- it was not enough!

Then he decided to post a response to the list.  In the heart of his
message was an interesting analogy backed up by a reference to the
respectful official distribution of the GNU operating system, simply
called "GNU", for obvious reasons that he truly knew, but ignored for
the sake of his argument.  The analogy read:

  "Like the GNU system is not just Guix; dpkg should be compared to
   GNU, not Guix."

Our fellow hacker had his discernment affected by his emotional
attachment to dpkg and was not capable of reasoning clearly.  He
couldn't figure out that the analogy he was trying to make was
completely absurd since his original assumption, that dpkg was the
Debian distribution, was plainly wrong.  Moreover, the analogy was
such that it was made a blatant error, in the context, to whomever
knew the GNU system and it's meaning --- as he did, but couldn't or
didn't want to perceive.

Following up his response, there was a message confabulating about an
hypothetical GNU contributor who conflated Guix and GNU, strongly
believing that Guix was in fact GNU.  Then, although our fellow hacker
was sympathetic towards that tale hacker, he confronted the absurd
which his analogy leaded if it was put in the symmetrical context of
reference.

The rest, as they say, is history.  Maybe we'll never know if our
fellow hacker admitted his misconception and resumed his appreciated
and highly relevant work on his package manager, he once naively
dreamed as an operating system, or pursued his original delusion to an
end.  What we do know is that this story teaches us a lesson:
discernment is the main attribute of a hacker's wisdom.  Put your
discernment first, your sentiments later.


-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;


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Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer) wrote:

> Let me shamelessly indulge in this bikeshedding discussion.

"Bikeshedding" like those discussions of whether the operating system
should be called "Linux" or "GNU/Linux"?

> Even if the kernel component or any other number of components are 
> individually maintained by third parties, the effort/project of
> bundling them together can alone justify giving the resulting OS a
> wholly different name.  That would be the brand/project name, akin to
> Fedora, CentOS, or Ubuntu.  (And also bad choices like "Arch Linux",
> "Gentoo Linux", etc.  They can justify themselves by saying that they
> chose that name for the project.)

That's not a matter of it being technically justifiable, although it
is.  It's a matter of strategy to maximize the effects of our efforts
to convey the GNU philosophy to the world.

> I think it's a good idea to go with the GNU brand name.

I'm glad about that.

> But many people will intuitively desire a more technical name, like 
> "Guix GNU/Linux," naturally shortened to "Guix"...

How can you be so sure?  What people, the users?

It's not a matter of what people's wishes for dubbing projects and
packages could possibly be.  It's a matter of our stance about an
important issue which brings implications as to the visibility of our
ethics by society and may affect the destiny of the GNU Project, and
the world's computing.  I'm not exaggerating here!  Do an exercise of
thought: try to think how would be the computing today without the GNU
Project or without the "Linux" misconception.  The revolution begins
with one agreement on principle and an endless stream of actions to
hold it up.

> I'm not sure if there's much we can do about it, since "GNU" is 
> awfully prone to confusion too so people will avoid it.

Of course there is!  The fundamental thing is to hold the firm belief
we are developing the one true and complete GNU operating system,
which in fact we are, and tell people that.  If we don't stand by that
idea, why are people supposed to respect or acknowledge it at all?

> To at least prevent confusion between the package manager and The GNU
> System, we could sanction calling the latter GuixOS as an 
> alternative?

How can one, in one's right mind, conflate the two?

*Guix is the package manager, GNU is the operating system.*

We have to agree on that so we can make it clear to future developers
and users, and then move on fulfilling our mission.

-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;


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Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer]

Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org> writes:

> [everything]

I really agree after all; when I think of it, the number of people I've
met who know and possibly even like "Linux" but have either literally
never heard of GNU, or think of it as some obscure side-project, is
quite depressing.

And talking about Guix or "GuixOS" as a "distro" might have a risk of
people remembering it as "yet another Linux distro."

The problem is just with people who already know what GNU is but don't
necessarily associate very strongly with it, and are thus annoyed by the
conflation of the umbrella project and the concrete distribution, but I
suppose we can explain them the reason.

You've convinced me. :-)

Taylan

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Ludovic Courtès]

Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org> skribis:

> From a strategical perspective, I fail to see why the distinction
> between GNU/Linux-libre and GNU/Hurd could be of any relevance.  IMHO,
> calling both simply "GNU" would help in the promotion of the GNU
> project and its ideals.  That would not cause confusion, because GNU
> would be defined as an operating system of multiple kernels, and
> technical-inclined people would always know how to tell the difference
> when needed or appropriate.

Agreed.

Ludo’.

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 05/11/14 15:16, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org> skribis:
> 
>> From a strategical perspective, I fail to see why the distinction
>> between GNU/Linux-libre and GNU/Hurd could be of any relevance.  IMHO,
>> calling both simply "GNU" would help in the promotion of the GNU
>> project and its ideals.  That would not cause confusion, because GNU
>> would be defined as an operating system of multiple kernels, and
>> technical-inclined people would always know how to tell the difference
>> when needed or appropriate.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> Ludo’.
> 

Since I completely agree with Bruno, here is the GRUB image proposal
using the GNU logo:

http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/gnu/2014-11-05-grub-dark.png

If something impedes us to name the system just GNU (I hope not) here
are the variation of the Guix background I promised.

One of the comments was that the red color could be distracting, so here
are versions with gray, green and blue instead. I also made the text a
bit lighter to increase contrast.

GRAY:
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-gray.png

GREEN:
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-green.png

BLUE:
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-blue.png

RED:
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-red.png

I also tried to add the GNU logo somewhere, as Ludovic suggested. It was
difficult, so I made this version with the GNU head on the background.

http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-gnu-blue.png

Finally, I made a dark text on light background version, as Andreas
suggested. Personally, I'd go with the dark one.

http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-light-blue.png

Let me know what you think,


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Andreas Enge]

On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 04:28:25PM -0500, Felipe López wrote:
> Since I completely agree with Bruno, here is the GRUB image proposal
> using the GNU logo:
> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/gnu/2014-11-05-grub-dark.png

The GNU is nice. How about having a gnu without the text and then
the Guix logo?

> One of the comments was that the red color could be distracting, so here
> are versions with gray, green and blue instead. I also made the text a
> bit lighter to increase contrast.

All are fine with me, maybe the red is a bit too distracting.

> I also tried to add the GNU logo somewhere, as Ludovic suggested. It was
> difficult, so I made this version with the GNU head on the background.
> 
> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-gnu-blue.png

This is not bad at all! The gnu like a watermark is very elegant, I think.
But the Guix logo and the gnu head are stomping on each other's feet. How
about putting the Guix logo in the lower right corner of the frame with the
boot options? Is it possible to drop this frame? I suppose not, but it would
again be more elegant with respect to the gnu watermark.

> Finally, I made a dark text on light background version, as Andreas
> suggested. Personally, I'd go with the dark one.
> 
> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-light-blue.png

I agree that in the light version, the background image is more difficult
to spot. If you go for the dark version, how about choosing just white
instead of light grey text color?

Andreas

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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Felipe López wrote:> On 05/11/14 15:16, Ludovic Courtès wrote:

> Since I completely agree with Bruno, here is the GRUB image proposal 
> using the GNU logo:
> 
> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/gnu/2014-11-05-grub-dark.png

That's beautiful! -*.*-  Congratulations!  To me it's perfect.

Thank you for working so promptly on it.  I'm looking forward to your
next work.

-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;


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Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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Andreas Enge wrote

> The GNU is nice. How about having a gnu without the text and then
> the Guix logo?

May we know what's the rationale backing up your request?  Why would
exceptionally the package manager's logo go along with the operating
system's logo in the *boot manager* screen?  Furthermore, what's the
compelling reason to omit the operating system's name, which we really
want people to see, for that end?

-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;


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Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Andreas Enge]

On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 10:39:17PM +0100, Andreas Enge wrote:
> This is not bad at all! The gnu like a watermark is very elegant, I think.
> But the Guix logo and the gnu head are stomping on each other's feet. How
> about putting the Guix logo in the lower right corner of the frame with the
> boot options? Is it possible to drop this frame? I suppose not, but it would
> again be more elegant with respect to the gnu watermark.

Actually, you could use the Guix logo as given on its home page:
   https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/graphics/
with the text "The GNU System" underneath. This is what I usually mean
when speaking of the Guix logo.

Andreas

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 05/11/14 16:39, Andreas Enge wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 04:28:25PM -0500, Felipe López wrote:
>> Since I completely agree with Bruno, here is the GRUB image proposal
>> using the GNU logo:
>> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/gnu/2014-11-05-grub-dark.png
> 
> The GNU is nice. How about having a gnu without the text and then
> the Guix logo?

That image is for the GNU system. If we can call the system GNU, there
would be no need to add the Guix logo.

>> One of the comments was that the red color could be distracting, so here
>> are versions with gray, green and blue instead. I also made the text a
>> bit lighter to increase contrast.
> 
> All are fine with me, maybe the red is a bit too distracting.

Yes, I agree.

>> I also tried to add the GNU logo somewhere, as Ludovic suggested. It was
>> difficult, so I made this version with the GNU head on the background.
>>
>> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-gnu-blue.png
> 
> This is not bad at all! The gnu like a watermark is very elegant, I think.
> But the Guix logo and the gnu head are stomping on each other's feet.

Yes I think so too. Although I tried to make the GNU very subtle.

> How
> about putting the Guix logo in the lower right corner of the frame with the
> boot options? Is it possible to drop this frame? I suppose not, but it would
> again be more elegant with respect to the gnu watermark.

I can try moving Guix logo.

As for the frame, GRUB 2 is supposed to be more flexible about the
appearance of the elements in the screen. The frame can be removed and
the boot options can be graphically enhanced. However, I'm using GRUB
legacy appearance because, as far as I know, the theming features of
GRUB 2 are still in development and may not be stable. I've seen that
other distros use the GRUB 2 default appearance, which is the same as
GRUB legacy.

>> Finally, I made a dark text on light background version, as Andreas
>> suggested. Personally, I'd go with the dark one.
>>
>> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-light-blue.png
> 
> I agree that in the light version, the background image is more difficult
> to spot. If you go for the dark version, how about choosing just white
> instead of light grey text color?

Is the current gray difficult to read? If not, I'd prefer to leave it
that way.

> Andreas
> 

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 05/11/14 18:06, Andreas Enge wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 10:39:17PM +0100, Andreas Enge wrote:
>> This is not bad at all! The gnu like a watermark is very elegant, I think.
>> But the Guix logo and the gnu head are stomping on each other's feet. How
>> about putting the Guix logo in the lower right corner of the frame with the
>> boot options? Is it possible to drop this frame? I suppose not, but it would
>> again be more elegant with respect to the gnu watermark.
> 
> Actually, you could use the Guix logo as given on its home page:
>    https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/graphics/
> with the text "The GNU System" underneath. This is what I usually mean
> when speaking of the Guix logo.


I removed that text because it is one of the things I find confusing
about Guix: if Guix is "The GNU System", why not call the system just GNU?

If for some reason we can't use the name GNU to refer to the system we
are putting together, I think the text in the Guix logo should read "A
GNU System".

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 05/11/14 18:06, Andreas Enge wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 10:39:17PM +0100, Andreas Enge wrote:
>> This is not bad at all! The gnu like a watermark is very elegant, I think.
>> But the Guix logo and the gnu head are stomping on each other's feet. How
>> about putting the Guix logo in the lower right corner of the frame with the
>> boot options? Is it possible to drop this frame? I suppose not, but it would
>> again be more elegant with respect to the gnu watermark.
> 
> Actually, you could use the Guix logo as given on its home page:
>    https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/graphics/
> with the text "The GNU System" underneath. This is what I usually mean
> when speaking of the Guix logo.


I removed that text because it is one of the things I find confusing
about Guix: if Guix is "The GNU System", why not call the system just GNU?

If for some reason we can't use the name GNU to refer to the system we
are putting together, I think the text in the Guix logo should read "A
GNU System".

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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Andreas Enge wrote:

> Actually, you could use the Guix logo as given on its home page: 
> https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/graphics/ with the text "The GNU 
> System" underneath. This is what I usually mean when speaking of the 
> Guix logo.

Andreas, I want you to know that I understand your feelings about Guix
and I admire the intensity of the passion you've got towards it.
Moreover, you are trying to be flexible and I *do* appreciate that.

GNU Guix is a wonderful and quite revolutionary piece of software ---
the GNU way --- if you know what I mean.  No doubts about that!
Hopefully, it will help the free software community to get to the next
milestone in the forefront of software package management, improving
users' practical exercise of freedom, collaboration and defense
against digital threats.

However, the most relevant contribution of Guix as I see, is that it
will bring us the opportunity to conclude the GNU operating system as
envisioned by RMS 30 years ago with the foundation of the GNU project.
That's the reason I feel strongly grateful and indebted to Ludovic.
This is a great thing, I can tell you, and I'm very, very pleased to
have the opportunity to help make that become true.  That's a purpose
bigger than my desires, self-esteem and myself, because I feel morally
responsible for it, and so should feel every good neighbor who cares
about freedom in computing and its future.

For that noble purpose, I want to ask you to understand that we can't
take the risk of fading out the GNU image and name by promoting a
misplaced and misleading particular GNU package brand, as if it were
as important and meaningful as the GNU system itself, just because we
feel like doing so.  There are technical and strategical arguments
against it, since common sense has shown not to be enough.  Actually,
there is a lot more at stake here than just bringing notoriety to the
project you love so much.

This is particularly true about that Guix logo with the text "The GNU
System" underneath it, that you are talking about.  It misleads people
to think that Guix is another distribution of the GNU operating
system.

First of all, from the technical standpoint, Guix is not a
distribution at all, but the package manager of the GNU operating
system.  Please, face it!  A distribution is, by definition, a variant
of the GNU operating system arranged by an organization of people who
have set out to distribute it.  The GNU project is the organization
arranging and distributing the software that have been packaged to be
handled by Guix.  Therefore, what you want to call "the Guix
distribution" is in fact the GNU project distribution.  Guix is
clearly not an organization because it's software by it's very nature:
another GNU package that gets distributed.  However, what probably
makes you conflate the two, is the remarkable fact that Guix is also
the tool intended to help distribute the GNU system, but, again, it's
*not* the distribution itself.  Furthermore, by definition, the system
distributed by the GNU project is the GNU operating system and clearly
Guix is just a proper part of it, namely its package manager.  Also,
it's important to stress that the GNU project's distribution is the
trivial and original one that was dubbed simply "GNU" since its
conception.

Now, from the strategical perspective, for conveying the GNU project's
philosophy, we could have a lot of GNU distributions, and we *do* have
a lot of them; however, people don't need another distribution of the
GNU operating system, rather they need ***the GNU system***, so they
may know that we have completed what we set out to do, and henceforth
it's been proven that idealistic goals can be achieved for the
betterment of society.

I'm sure everyone in this list loves Guix, and wishes that it gets to
its rightful and prominent place within the GNU system and project.
Just let's keep our reasoning clear, feel responsible for the
consequences of our own choices, and finally do the right thing for
the greater good of GNU and ultimately software users' freedom.

-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;


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Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Alex Sassmannshausen]

Hello,

Some really wonderful mockups!

Felipe López writes:

> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-gnu-blue.png

I like the ones with only the GNU logo, but this one is probably my
favourite! As Andreas said: the watermark is very elegant :-)

Alex

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Ludovic Courtès]

Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org> skribis:

> Andreas Enge wrote
>
>> The GNU is nice. How about having a gnu without the text and then
>> the Guix logo?
>
> May we know what's the rationale backing up your request?  Why would
> exceptionally the package manager's logo go along with the operating
> system's logo in the *boot manager* screen?  Furthermore, what's the
> compelling reason to omit the operating system's name, which we really
> want people to see, for that end?

I think it would be good to see both names, for the reason I gave
earlier.  When we have RMS’s green light, we can remove “Guix”
altogether, but for now, it’s better to keep both.

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Ludovic Courtès]

Bruno,

As a long-time GNU contributor and maintainer, I’m pretty sure Andreas
is fully aware of what you’re saying.  That does not mean he cannot have
a slightly different opinion on what should appear on the boot screen,
after all.  Please respect those facts.

Also, keep in mind that we need to Richard’s assent before we can call
our work “the GNU system” (two years ago I thought we had his assent,
hence the logo etc., but later discussions suggested otherwise.)

We all agree on the goal, let’s just keep hacking until it’s obvious
that our work fits the bill and deserves the Grand Name.  :-)

Ludo’.

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Ludovic Courtès]

Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

> Since I completely agree with Bruno, here is the GRUB image proposal
> using the GNU logo:
>
> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/gnu/2014-11-05-grub-dark.png

[...]

> GRAY:
> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-gray.png

Very nice!  I have a slight preference for the gray version.

Also, as discussed with Bruno, I think it would be better to have both
the GNU and Guix logo.  I would make the Guix logo smaller, and put it
in a corner, or maybe below the GNU logo, or maybe next to it.

WDYT?

Please let me know what you Savannah account is, so you can add your
work to the guix-artwork repo.

Besides, is there anything I should know to get the GRUB config to
display it correctly, with the right size, aspect ratio, etc.?

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Ludovic Courtès]

Alex Sassmannshausen <alex.sassmannshausen@gmail.com> skribis:

> Felipe López writes:
>
>> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-gnu-blue.png
>
> I like the ones with only the GNU logo, but this one is probably my
> favourite! As Andreas said: the watermark is very elegant :-)

Actually yes, this one is probably the best synthesis.  Perhaps the
contrasts of the gnu could be slightly increased?

Ludo’.

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/11/14 04:16, Alex Sassmannshausen wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Some really wonderful mockups!
> 
> Felipe López writes:
> 
>> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-gnu-blue.png
>
>> 
> I like the ones with only the GNU logo, but this one is probably
> my favourite! As Andreas said: the watermark is very elegant :-)
> 
> Alex
> 
> 

Thanks for the feedback, Alex :)

- -- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/
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Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 06/11/14 04:58, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:
> 
>> Since I completely agree with Bruno, here is the GRUB image proposal
>> using the GNU logo:
>>
>> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/gnu/2014-11-05-grub-dark.png
> 
> [...]
> 
>> GRAY:
>> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-gray.png
> 
> Very nice!  I have a slight preference for the gray version.
> 
> Also, as discussed with Bruno, I think it would be better to have both
> the GNU and Guix logo.  I would make the Guix logo smaller, and put it
> in a corner, or maybe below the GNU logo, or maybe next to it.
> 
> WDYT?

Since the background with the GNU head seems to work, here is modified
version. I made the head a bit more visible and moved the Guix logo to a
corner.

MOD:
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-06-grub-dark-gnu-blue.png

ORIGINAL:
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-05-grub-dark-gnu-blue.png


> Please let me know what you Savannah account is, so you can add your
> work to the guix-artwork repo.
> 

I just sent a request to join the project in Savannah.

> Besides, is there anything I should know to get the GRUB config to
> display it correctly, with the right size, aspect ratio, etc.?

You have to set the following options in GRUB configuration:

GRUB_GFXMODE
GRUB_BACKGROUND

I would provide one SVG version of the background for the following
aspect ratios: 4:3, 16:10, 16:9. Then, you build PNG versions in
specific sizes (for example, 1024x768, 1440x900, 1920x1080).

Ideally, GRUB should be able to decide what GFXMODE and BACKGROUND to
use for every screen. However, the last time I provided GRUB stuff for
gNewSense (for GRUB legacy), GRUB would determine the display size and
use the same background image (a 640x480 PNG) for all aspect ratios.
This resulted in stretched background images, so usually we would make
the image as simple as possible: no text or shapes, just a background
with gradients.

But, since Guix is using GRUB 2, which is supposed to be more flexible,
we should at least try to see if it can use an appropriate image for a
given display.

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Andreas Enge]

On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 06:38:12PM -0500, Felipe López wrote:
> As for the frame, GRUB 2 is supposed to be more flexible about the
> appearance of the elements in the screen. The frame can be removed and
> the boot options can be graphically enhanced. However, I'm using GRUB
> legacy appearance because, as far as I know, the theming features of
> GRUB 2 are still in development and may not be stable. I've seen that
> other distros use the GRUB 2 default appearance, which is the same as
> GRUB legacy.

Okay, I agree it is more important to be stable than to get the last bit
of visual pleasure.

> Is the current gray difficult to read? If not, I'd prefer to leave it
> that way.

For me it is okay, but I would argue that the more contrast, the better!

Andreas

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Andreas Enge]

On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 11:09:09AM -0500, Felipe López wrote:
> Since the background with the GNU head seems to work, here is modified
> version. I made the head a bit more visible and moved the Guix logo to a
> corner.
> MOD:
> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-06-grub-dark-gnu-blue.png

I find it very beautiful, thanks a lot for your work!
The blue works well, too,  I think, by having the same colour in the corners
and for the highlighted text.

Andreas

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Ludovic Courtès]

Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-06-grub-dark-gnu-blue.png

Wonderful, works for me!

Now that you have access to the repository, perhaps you can create a
‘grub’ directory (in the guix-artwork.git repo), and add the SVGs for
this one?

> You have to set the following options in GRUB configuration:
>
> GRUB_GFXMODE
> GRUB_BACKGROUND
>
> I would provide one SVG version of the background for the following
> aspect ratios: 4:3, 16:10, 16:9. Then, you build PNG versions in
> specific sizes (for example, 1024x768, 1440x900, 1920x1080).
>
> Ideally, GRUB should be able to decide what GFXMODE and BACKGROUND to
> use for every screen. However, the last time I provided GRUB stuff for
> gNewSense (for GRUB legacy), GRUB would determine the display size and
> use the same background image (a 640x480 PNG) for all aspect ratios.
> This resulted in stretched background images, so usually we would make
> the image as simple as possible: no text or shapes, just a background
> with gradients.
>
> But, since Guix is using GRUB 2, which is supposed to be more flexible,
> we should at least try to see if it can use an appropriate image for a
> given display.

OK, we’ll see.

Thank you!

Ludo’.

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) wrote:

> I think it would be good to see both names, for the reason I gave
> earlier.  When we have RMS’s green light, we can remove “Guix”
> altogether, but for now, it’s better to keep both.

Watch out!  If even developers are beginning to think it's "the Guix's
distribution", as if it were a meaningful or good thing to think or say,
just imagine the misunderstanding inflicted on users by the promotion of
that idea.

I'm afraid that RMS's green light might come too late.  The 0.8 release
is of such importance for defining what people will think about the
system, because now that it has graphical art, people will see the Guix
logo everywhere the operating system and distribution brand were
supposed to be.  The users probably will start calling it "the Guix
distribution" and very soon that will become "the Guix system", with the
releases coming by, the misunderstanding will be so disseminated and
rooted on people's habits, ideas and information they have access to,
that it'll require a immeasurable amount of time and energy, if possible
at all, to recover from that status quo, when RMS finally raises the
green flag.

But you might think: "Wait! But isn't the GNU brand being exhibited with
the same ease?".  It may well be the case now, but it tends to
diminishes and phase out as time comes by. Even now, people will look at
it and wonder why that GNU is there, and then they will get the first
*apparently sound* thought to justify it: "The Guix distro is a GNU
project, right?!".  After all, in most people's head, GNU is just a
collection of software projects.

Unfortunately, if the actual developers are not willing to stand by and
fight for the premise that "there is no system but GNU" and express that
on their work, I don't think RMS could save us, anyway.

-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;


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Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 06/11/14 12:13, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:
> 
>> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/static/temp/img/guix/2014-11-06-grub-dark-gnu-blue.png
> 
> Wonderful, works for me!
> 
> Now that you have access to the repository, perhaps you can create a
> ‘grub’ directory (in the guix-artwork.git repo), and add the SVGs for
> this one?

Done. The SVG is in the repository now.


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) wrote:

> As a long-time GNU contributor and maintainer, I’m pretty sure 
> Andreas is fully aware of what you’re saying.

If that's the case, why didn't *he* say it to me instead of stating that
Guix is the GNU system itself?  If still being *fully aware* of what
I've said, and contemplating the soundness of the arguments one still
states that sort of thing, it's better to have a killer argument.
However I don't think someone who might have it would stay in silence,
since he could have settled the case in his favor.

> That does not mean he cannot have a slightly different opinion on 
> what should appear on the boot screen, after all.  Please respect 
> those facts.

I'm fine with him having a different[0] opinion about anything and I
respect that.  The problem is not justifying a request that would affect
us all based entirely on his particular opinion.

> Also, keep in mind that we need to Richard’s assent before we can 
> call our work “the GNU system” (two years ago I thought we had his 
> assent, hence the logo etc., but later discussions suggested 
> otherwise.)

Even if that was the case, I don't think that's the reason Andreas is so
worried about the Guix brand.

> We all agree on the goal, let’s just keep hacking until it’s obvious
>  that our work fits the bill and deserves the Grand Name.  :-)

How could you say that "we all agree on the goal"?  How could you
possibly know that?  Particularly when the evidence points otherwise?
Only each individual knows what he or she agrees with.

There is no bill to be fitted.  There is the GNU system.  A group of
people might be working on it or not.  GNU hackers are certainly working
on it.  That's all.

Also, this is not a question of deserving the "Grand Name", since that
name is rightfully ours: we are the ones working on it!  Don't let
people say otherwise.  If even you, GNU hacker, are not sure whether or
not you are working on the one true and complete GNU operating system,
how can you expect other people to acknowledge it?  To me, it just
doesn't make any sense.


Footnotes:

[0] Please don't understate things.  That's a lot more than *slightly*
because the meaning and implications are very different.


-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;


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Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 06/11/14 15:08, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro wrote:

[...]

> Also, this is not a question of deserving the "Grand Name", since that
> name is rightfully ours: we are the ones working on it!  Don't let
> people say otherwise.  If even you, GNU hacker, are not sure whether or
> not you are working on the one true and complete GNU operating system,
> how can you expect other people to acknowledge it?  To me, it just
> doesn't make any sense.

I think this is a very important issue. I don't see why RMS would
complain if we call this system GNU, because it's GNU.

Something I learned from the GNU Project is that GNU is the operating
system and Linux-libre is the kernel. So I don't think not having the
Hurd ready is an obstacle.

Let's just go ahead and use the name. RMS will be glad to know that the
real GNU will be available for download in some months or a couple of
years (and not decades).


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Ludovic Courtès]

Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

> Done. The SVG is in the repository now.

Thanks!

Commit 99ae9ce does preliminary integration.  I tested it on VMs as well
as raw hardware, and it works well.  :-)

There are a couple of shortcomings:

  1. I didn’t know how to get the screen’s aspect ratio so that grub.cfg
     would load the right image.  Any ideas?

  2. ‘set color_normal’ and similar only allow the use of color names
     (see color.c in GRUB), so I wasn’t able to specify the right colors
     for the menu items and border.

     Apparently there’s a CSS-like theme format.  Would you be able to
     come up with the right incantation?

The code for this is at
<http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/gnu/system/grub.scm>.

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 08/11/14 09:22, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:
> 
>> Done. The SVG is in the repository now.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Commit 99ae9ce does preliminary integration.  I tested it on VMs as well
> as raw hardware, and it works well.  :-)
> 
> There are a couple of shortcomings:
> 
>   1. I didn’t know how to get the screen’s aspect ratio so that grub.cfg
>      would load the right image.  Any ideas?
> 

I thought that maybe you could access a platform-specific default
resolution from a helper script using the GRUB helper library
(grub-mkconfig) and then set the background image with an appropriate
aspect ratio. [1] But I haven't written any script for GRUB before, so I
don't know.


>   2. ‘set color_normal’ and similar only allow the use of color names
>      (see color.c in GRUB), so I wasn’t able to specify the right colors
>      for the menu items and border.
> 

You can use these values:

color_normal=light-gray/black
color_highlight=cyan/black

I tried them in this computer and they are pretty much the same colors I
used in the mock-up.


>      Apparently there’s a CSS-like theme format.  Would you be able to
>      come up with the right incantation?
> 

I'll try to provide a GRUB theme [2] when I read a bit more about how
they work. So, maybe not for Guix 0.8.


[1] https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html#gfxmode
[2] https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html#Theme-file-format

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Ludovic Courtès]

Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

> On 08/11/14 09:22, Ludovic Courtès wrote:

[...]

>>   1. I didn’t know how to get the screen’s aspect ratio so that grub.cfg
>>      would load the right image.  Any ideas?
>> 
>
> I thought that maybe you could access a platform-specific default
> resolution from a helper script using the GRUB helper library
> (grub-mkconfig) and then set the background image with an appropriate
> aspect ratio. [1] But I haven't written any script for GRUB before, so I
> don't know.

I was looking for something like a run-time function.  There’s
‘vbeinfo’, but it’s not really usable for that.  I’d need to check
whether/how other distros handle it.

> You can use these values:
>
> color_normal=light-gray/black
> color_highlight=cyan/black
>
> I tried them in this computer and they are pretty much the same colors I
> used in the mock-up.

Oh, right.  I’ve just fixed that, and that’s good.

> I'll try to provide a GRUB theme [2] when I read a bit more about how
> they work. So, maybe not for Guix 0.8.

Yeah, it doesn’t even seem necessary for this theme.

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Ludovic Courtès]

For the record, with current master the GRUB menu looks like this:

  http://www.gnu.org/software/guix/screenshots/0.8/grub-menu.png

Ludo’.

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Felipe López]

On 12/11/14 07:28, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> For the record, with current master the GRUB menu looks like this:
> 
>   http://www.gnu.org/software/guix/screenshots/0.8/grub-menu.png
> 
> Ludo’.
> 

I see that the Guix logo is a bit higher than I would expect and a bit
close to the frame. The position of the logo will be a problem if GRUB
can't choose an appropriate image for the aspect ratio of the display;
the frame and the logo will overlap. So I would recommend to move the
logo back to the middle or put it in a corner (out of the frame).

I can do any changes before release if necessary.


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: [ART] Background image for GRUB

[Ludovic Courtès]

Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

> On 12/11/14 07:28, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
>> For the record, with current master the GRUB menu looks like this:
>> 
>>   http://www.gnu.org/software/guix/screenshots/0.8/grub-menu.png
>> 
>> Ludo’.
>> 
>
> I see that the Guix logo is a bit higher than I would expect and a bit
> close to the frame.

Right, that’s perfect if you think you can adjust it.

> The position of the logo will be a problem if GRUB can't choose an
> appropriate image for the aspect ratio of the display; the frame and
> the logo will overlap.

Actually on my laptop, which has a 16/10 screen, GRUB switches to a
640x480 resolution anyway, so the whole screen is scaled.  Thus, there’s
no particular problem with the image.

So I don’t think any changes are necessary here.

Thanks,
Ludo’.