Re: 04/04: gnu: Add fwupd.

Re: 04/04: gnu: Add fwupd.

[Maxim Cournoyer]

Hi,

guix-commits@gnu.org writes:

> civodul pushed a commit to branch master
> in repository guix.
>
> commit 23152ff70f0ed4966d8207846f54c793d7cb4f86
> Author: Petr Hodina <phodina@protonmail.com>
> AuthorDate: Tue Jan 4 06:58:51 2022 +0100
>
>     gnu: Add fwupd.
>     
>     * gnu/packages/firmware.scm (fwupd): New variable.
>     
>     Signed-off-by: Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org>

Just a quick question: does this tool talks to a remote server that
serves non-free software as well as free one?  If so, it'd need to be
patched to comply with the FSDG.

Thanks,

Maxim

Re: 04/04: gnu: Add fwupd.

[Liliana Marie Prikler]

Am Mittwoch, dem 31.08.2022 um 09:26 -0400 schrieb Maxim Cournoyer:
> Hi,
> 
> guix-commits@gnu.org writes:
> 
> > civodul pushed a commit to branch master
> > in repository guix.
> > 
> > commit 23152ff70f0ed4966d8207846f54c793d7cb4f86
> > Author: Petr Hodina <phodina@protonmail.com>
> > AuthorDate: Tue Jan 4 06:58:51 2022 +0100
> > 
> >     gnu: Add fwupd.
> >     
> >     * gnu/packages/firmware.scm (fwupd): New variable.
> >     
> >     Signed-off-by: Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org>
> 
> Just a quick question: does this tool talks to a remote server that
> serves non-free software as well as free one?  If so, it'd need to be
> patched to comply with the FSDG.
I'd be surprised if it supplied free software as well as non-free one.

The vendor guide[1] states the following:
> Do I have to contribute any code?
> 
> No, unless you're using a custom update protocol that fwupd does not
> already support.

The user guide[2] likewise states:
> The OEM vendor is in full control over what models are supported and is
> the only entity that can add support for new hardware.

The vendor agreement[3] further grants no freedom safe for the second –
the freedom to make unmodified copies.

Cheers

[1] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/vendors
[2] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/users
[3] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/agreement

Re: 04/04: gnu: Add fwupd.

[Reza Housseini]

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On Wednesday, August 31, 2022, Liliana Marie Prikler <
liliana.prikler@gmail.com> wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, dem 31.08.2022 um 09:26 -0400 schrieb Maxim Cournoyer:
> > Hi,
> >
> > guix-commits@gnu.org writes:
> >
> > > civodul pushed a commit to branch master
> > > in repository guix.
> > >
> > > commit 23152ff70f0ed4966d8207846f54c793d7cb4f86
> > > Author: Petr Hodina <phodina@protonmail.com>
> > > AuthorDate: Tue Jan 4 06:58:51 2022 +0100
> > >
> > >     gnu: Add fwupd.
> > >
> > >     * gnu/packages/firmware.scm (fwupd): New variable.
> > >
> > >     Signed-off-by: Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org>
> >
> > Just a quick question: does this tool talks to a remote server that
> > serves non-free software as well as free one?  If so, it'd need to be
> > patched to comply with the FSDG.
> I'd be surprised if it supplied free software as well as non-free one.
>
> The vendor guide[1] states the following:
> > Do I have to contribute any code?
> >
> > No, unless you're using a custom update protocol that fwupd does not
> > already support.
>
> The user guide[2] likewise states:
> > The OEM vendor is in full control over what models are supported and is
> > the only entity that can add support for new hardware.
>
> The vendor agreement[3] further grants no freedom safe for the second –
> the freedom to make unmodified copies.
>
> Cheers
>
> [1] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/vendors
> [2] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/users
> [3] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/agreement
>
>
Isn't fwupd a package manager which could technically be replaced by guix?

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Re: 04/04: gnu: Add fwupd.

[Maxime Devos]

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On 01-09-2022 08:27, Reza Housseini wrote:
>
>     > No, unless you're using a custom update protocol that fwupd does not
>     > already support.
>
>     The user guide[2] likewise states:
>     > The OEM vendor is in full control over what models are supported
>     and is
>     > the only entity that can add support for new hardware.
>
>     The vendor agreement[3] further grants no freedom safe for the
>     second –
>     the freedom to make unmodified copies.
>
>     Cheers
>
>     [1] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/vendors
>     <https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/vendors>
>     [2] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/users
>     <https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/users>
>     [3] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/agreement
>     <https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/agreement>
>
>
> Isn't fwupd a package manager which could technically be replaced by guix?

IIUC, fwupd not only receives firmware updates, it also sends the 
firmware to the device (installing it). While Guix supports installing 
software, I don't think it supports installing firmware in specific (at 
least, not yet). And to extend Guix with support for installing 
firmware, I expect it would use a tool like fwupd to actually send the 
updated firmware to the hardware.

Greetings,
Maxime.

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Re: 04/04: gnu: Add fwupd.

[phodina]

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> No, unless you're using a custom update protocol that fwupd does not
> already support.

The user guide[2] likewise states:
> The OEM vendor is in full control over what models are supported and is
> the only entity that can add support for new hardware.

The vendor agreement[3] further grants no freedom safe for the second –
the freedom to make unmodified copies.

Cheers

[1] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/vendors
[2] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/users
[3] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/docs/agreement

Isn't fwupd a package manager which could technically be replaced by guix?
IIUC, fwupd not only receives firmware updates, it also sends the firmware to the device (installing it). While Guix supports installing software, I don't think it supports installing firmware in specific (at least, not yet). And to extend Guix with support for installing firmware, I expect it would use a tool like fwupd to actually send the updated firmware to the hardware.
Greetings,
Maxime.

As Maxime pointed out it's more than just package manager as it installs the firmware for the device (through specific interface). I'd also rather not port this functionality directly into Guix.

Rather as was my intention and Maxime's thought the Guix will use this tool to update the firmware. So maybe create we can create some Guile API that will call fwupd.

This however needs further discussion as not all devices support "identification". By that I mean you can't simply query the HW for ID and the version of firmware. Also there might be the issue with number of applicable firmware updates due to the wear levelong of the storage technology. Or some other limitation.

Also this firmware update should be pushed only when necessary, not on every guix system reconfigure.

This way we can use it the same way as other distros use it and gain the advantage of having it tested on more HW.

The other question concerns the firmware itself. There are open source versions [1] and proprietary (Lenovo, Dell ...). So we need to support only the libre version.

[1] https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Fwupd

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Petr

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Re: 04/04: gnu: Add fwupd.

[Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli]

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Hi,

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 09:26:21 -0400
Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com> wrote:
> > commit 23152ff70f0ed4966d8207846f54c793d7cb4f86
> > Author: Petr Hodina <phodina@protonmail.com>
> > AuthorDate: Tue Jan 4 06:58:51 2022 +0100
> >
> >     gnu: Add fwupd.
> >     
> >     * gnu/packages/firmware.scm (fwupd): New variable.
> >     
> >     Signed-off-by: Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org>
> 
> Just a quick question: does this tool talks to a remote server that
> serves non-free software as well as free one?  If so, it'd need to be
> patched to comply with the FSDG.
It does.

By default it at least uses the LVFS repository which has nonfree
software. I don't remember if it also has other repositories or if
there was a way to easily download updates from the repository
without fwupd or LVFS.

It is at least possible to search for specific software in LVFS at this
address: https://fwupd.org/lvfs/search?value=microcode

You also have UEFI updates and so on there, so it's pretty clear that
there is some nonfree software.

And we actually have the opposite issue here: It is way harder to find
firmware updates that are fully free and that they can at least in
theory be built with 100% free software on top of FSDG compliant
distributions.

Maybe small free software firmwares like the colorhug firmware could be
OK. Somebody would need to check the dependencies for build the
firmware update.

Bigger firmwares like with firmwares using Coreboot are probably not
OK because while coreboot is under the GPL, to work on recent
hardware nonfree software is likely to be used (like microcode updates,
Intel FSP, nonfree AGESA, etc).

Denis.

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Re: 04/04: gnu: Add fwupd.

[Maxim Cournoyer]

Hello Denis,

Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli <GNUtoo@cyberdimension.org> writes:

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 09:26:21 -0400
> Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > commit 23152ff70f0ed4966d8207846f54c793d7cb4f86
>> > Author: Petr Hodina <phodina@protonmail.com>
>> > AuthorDate: Tue Jan 4 06:58:51 2022 +0100
>> >
>> >     gnu: Add fwupd.
>> >     
>> >     * gnu/packages/firmware.scm (fwupd): New variable.
>> >     
>> >     Signed-off-by: Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org>
>> 
>> Just a quick question: does this tool talks to a remote server that
>> serves non-free software as well as free one?  If so, it'd need to be
>> patched to comply with the FSDG.
> It does.
>
> By default it at least uses the LVFS repository which has nonfree
> software. I don't remember if it also has other repositories or if
> there was a way to easily download updates from the repository
> without fwupd or LVFS.
>
> It is at least possible to search for specific software in LVFS at this
> address: https://fwupd.org/lvfs/search?value=microcode
>
> You also have UEFI updates and so on there, so it's pretty clear that
> there is some nonfree software.
>
> And we actually have the opposite issue here: It is way harder to find
> firmware updates that are fully free and that they can at least in
> theory be built with 100% free software on top of FSDG compliant
> distributions.
>
> Maybe small free software firmwares like the colorhug firmware could be
> OK. Somebody would need to check the dependencies for build the
> firmware update.
>
> Bigger firmwares like with firmwares using Coreboot are probably not
> OK because while coreboot is under the GPL, to work on recent
> hardware nonfree software is likely to be used (like microcode updates,
> Intel FSP, nonfree AGESA, etc).

Thanks.

With this in mind, I've disabled the default "remotes", which seem to be
the metadata for specifying which remote server to interrogate for
firmware.  Users knowing what they want can enable them manually.

See commit 4d361a6b5147e3f91573e9d3c8c540a233e7e142.

Testers welcome!

Thanks,

Maxim