all messages for Emacs-related lists mirrored at yhetil.org
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com>
To: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, andreas.roehler@online.de, dgutov@yandex.ru
Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre
Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 16:42:42 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <874ksglvsd.fsf@red-bean.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E1jZQq8-0007tR-95@fencepost.gnu.org> (Richard Stallman's message of "Thu, 14 May 2020 23:16:48 -0400")

On 14 May 2020, Richard Stallman wrote:
>  > * Tell newcomers up front that Emacs really starts to be worth it
>  > * after a few years, not a few weeks.
>
>I don't believe that is true.  It is an exaggeration.

Well, it's not a rhetorical exaggeration, in any case.  That is, it is my actual belief, based on observation.  (It could be wrong, of course, but just to be clear, it wasn't an exaggeration for the sake of effect.)

Different people will naturally learn at different rates, depending on their aptitude and environment.  The best environment is to have an Emacs expert nearby in person, who can occasionally watch the newcomer edit and point out faster ways to do things, point out ways to ask Emacs for help, etc.  But even in that kind of environment, with a talented newcomer, I don't think I've seen it take less than approximately a year to get to the point where they are doing better with Emacs than they would have done with some less extensible, less capable text editor.

>  > * Also tell them about the ways in which Emacs may frustrate them
>  > * along the way, and explain that those frustrations are common
>  > * and are sometimes inevitably entangled with the same things that
>  > * make Emacs winning in the long term.
>
>This sounds like a recipe for discouraging people from starting.

To me it is just realistic, and if I were a newcomer I'd want to be informed of it.

>    > I've watched newcomers run into the same obstacles over and
>    > over, and this particular obstacle is always one of the first
>    > they encounter.
>
>Which obstacle is that?  If we can identify specific things that are
>likely to frustrate users, we can work on improving them.  But I can't
>see in your message what that refers to.

It was earlier in the thread:

> One thing that I recall every newcomer experiencing is, at least
> initially, the feeling that Emacs was constantly biting them --
> constantly surprising them with unexpected and confusing behaviors
> that jump out from accidental keystrokes.  Two of the first things I
> always have to teach newcomers are `C-g' and `C-h l' :-).

This property results from the keybinding space being tightly packed, of course -- which is good for experts but rocky for newcomers.

Teaching newcomers how to use these accidental stumbles to their advantage is important, and I always try to do so.  But I find it helps to let them know that it's going to happen often -- that Emacs will react in unexpected ways and surprise them, and that persisting through that initial fog of unexpected reactions is worth the effort.

A perfect analogy is manual ("stick") transmission cars versus automatic transmission cars.  A stick car is harder for a newcomer to drive, but gives an experienced user more control than she would otherwise have.  An automatic transmission car is easier for a newcomer, but frustrating for the expert because it limits (a bit) what she can do.

Does this mean that no one learns to drive stick?  Of course not.  Some people do so by choice -- they make a conscious investment, made with the understanding that driving will be *harder* for a while before there is any discernable payoff.  But they are willing to make that choice because others told them how it would be worth it.  It's not something the user would find out from reading the manual for the car, though.

Best regards,
-Karl



  reply	other threads:[~2020-05-15 21:42 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 277+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-05-08  8:26 Making Emacs popular again with a video Nathan Colinet
2020-05-08 10:39 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-10 20:48   ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-08 10:41 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-10 16:18   ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-08 11:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-10 20:32   ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-11 22:59     ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-09  7:50 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-10 20:57   ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-12  3:12     ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-12  7:04       ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-12 13:59         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-12 14:47           ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-12 16:08           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-13  4:01         ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13  8:49           ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-14  5:14             ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 10:22               ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-14 10:55               ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-15  3:25                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15  7:55                   ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-15 10:11                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 10:43                       ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-15 11:23                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 19:15                     ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-15 18:41                   ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-22 19:09                   ` Ben McGinnes
     [not found]                     ` <E1jcLVP-0003SB-II@fencepost.gnu.org>
2020-05-24 19:16                       ` Ben McGinnes
2020-05-14 14:13               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-14  7:38             ` Tim Cross
2020-05-14  7:51               ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-14 14:18               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-14 15:36                 ` Tim Cross
2020-05-13 10:43           ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-12  8:23       ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-13  3:55         ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13  8:18           ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-13 10:53           ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-13 16:20             ` Drew Adams
2020-05-14  2:18             ` (emacs) Intro [was: Making Emacs popular again with a video] excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-14 12:04               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-14 21:31                 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-15  0:46                   ` Dmitry Gutov
     [not found]                   ` <d28fe30d-c192-8022-b758-d8b7019e49b5@yandex.ru-M7KnL6R----2>
2020-05-17 19:11                     ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-19 14:14                       ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
     [not found]                         ` <d66793e5-07f9-4dd9-928d-e7e8c342b781@default>
     [not found]                           ` <M7iByNw--3-2@tutanota.com>
2020-05-21 18:18                             ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
     [not found]                             ` <M7sSK-m--3-2@tutanota.com-M7sSUVm--3-2>
2020-05-28  1:21                               ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-28  7:08                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-28  7:41                                   ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-28 10:23                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-29  2:39                                   ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-29  7:28                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-29  7:40                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-29 15:14                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-30  1:39                                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 22:14                 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-15  3:17               ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15  6:36               ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-12 12:57       ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-13 16:18         ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-13 16:28           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-13 19:39           ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-13 20:05             ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-13 20:52               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-13 22:04                 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-13 22:55                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-14  4:56                     ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-14 16:37                       ` Drew Adams
2020-05-14 22:11                       ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-15  3:16                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 21:42                         ` Karl Fogel [this message]
2020-05-15 22:14                           ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-16  0:03                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-15 22:41                           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-20 21:47                             ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-20 22:35                               ` Drew Adams
2020-05-21  0:35                                 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-16  2:43                           ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-05-18  3:46                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-18 11:26                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16  8:05                           ` Yuri Khan
2020-05-16 10:36                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 10:46                               ` Yuri Khan
2020-05-17  1:28                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17  1:39                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17  1:40                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17  1:59                         ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17  2:52                           ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17  9:32                             ` Joost Kremers
2020-05-17 11:07                             ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-18  3:43                           ` transient Richard Stallman
2020-05-18  6:58                             ` transient Joost Kremers
2020-05-18 11:29                               ` transient Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 18:41                               ` transient Howard Melman
2020-05-18 19:35                                 ` transient John Yates
2020-05-18 19:57                                   ` transient Howard Melman
2020-05-19  5:38                                 ` transient Drew Adams
2020-05-19 14:00                                   ` transient Arthur Miller
2020-05-20  3:14                                     ` transient Michael Heerdegen
     [not found]                                       ` <87tuztngxr.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
2020-06-03  4:32                                         ` bug#39902: transient Michael Heerdegen
2020-06-03 22:49                                           ` bug#39902: 28.0.50; Marking in dired with active region Juri Linkov
2020-06-04 12:31                                             ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-06-04 22:18                                               ` Juri Linkov
2020-05-19 22:04                                   ` transient Stefan Kangas
2020-05-19 22:53                                     ` transient Drew Adams
2020-05-19  4:02                               ` which-key Richard Stallman
2020-05-17  7:09                         ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre Drew Adams
2020-05-20 21:36                           ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-20 21:57                             ` Drew Adams
2020-05-20 22:00                         ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-20 22:07                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-21  8:03                             ` tomas
2020-05-21  9:33                               ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-21 10:04                                 ` tomas
2020-05-24 14:05                                   ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-21 16:20                                 ` xristos
2020-05-24 13:45                                   ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-24 16:52                                     ` xristos
2020-05-24 17:00                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-24 18:31                                     ` Philip K.
2020-05-25 17:34                                   ` João Távora
2020-05-26  4:14                                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-26 11:32                                       ` João Távora
2020-05-27  3:08                                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-27  5:01                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-29 12:59                                           ` Arthur Miller
2020-06-23  3:59                                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-21 17:07                               ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-23 20:36                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-14  6:26                   ` tomas
2020-05-14  6:16               ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-15  3:18               ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-16  0:56                 ` Tak Kunihiro
2020-05-16  6:50                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16  9:10                     ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 10:38                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 12:24                         ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 12:29                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 12:34                             ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 12:46                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 13:57                                 ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 19:35                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 20:05                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-16 20:34                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 20:44                                       ` Bob Newell
2020-06-24 15:37                                         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-05-16 23:12                                       ` Drew Adams
2020-05-16 23:18                                         ` Drew Adams
2020-05-16 23:47                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17  1:14                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17  3:13                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17  6:49                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17  7:02                                                 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17  7:11                                                   ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17  9:07                                                     ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 10:20                                                       ` Marcin Borkowski
2020-05-17 11:07                                                         ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 15:25                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-17 15:48                                                         ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 17:06                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 17:31                                                             ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-17 18:57                                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 20:03                                                                 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-18  8:32                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 11:39                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 13:02                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 13:38                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 16:31                                                                         ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-18 23:14                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-19  8:41                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20  1:01                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20  9:06                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21  0:15                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-21  9:07                                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 23:16                                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-22  9:31                                                                                         ` martin rudalics
2020-05-25  2:37                                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-26  8:06                                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2020-06-05  2:40                                                                                               ` pop-up-mini-mode, was " Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-19  8:40                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20  0:40                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20  9:04                                                                         ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20 13:28                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 14:45                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 14:56                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 16:12                                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 17:45                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20 18:09                                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 18:16                                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 18:24                                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 18:33                                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 18:56                                                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 19:22                                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 19:53                                                                                             ` tomas
2020-05-20 21:22                                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-21  7:43                                                                                                 ` tomas
2020-05-21  2:28                                                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-21 22:19                                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-22  7:28                                                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-22 12:16                                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 23:07                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 13:11                                                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-21 17:55                                                                                               ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 15:57                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2020-05-19  8:41                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 18:19                                                                   ` Suppressing beginning/end-of-buffer error messages (WAS: GNU Emacs raison d'etre) Noam Postavsky
2020-05-22  9:30                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2020-05-22 12:46                                                                       ` Noam Postavsky
     [not found]                                                                         ` <11bfe86b-131c-4f55-5125-c269a73e360d@gmx.at>
2020-05-23 11:10                                                                           ` Noam Postavsky
2020-05-17 18:36                                                             ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre Drew Adams
2020-05-17 21:04                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 21:48                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 18:38                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 21:17                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 21:37                                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18  8:33                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 11:37                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 21:57                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 18:28                                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 17:59                                                       ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 18:07                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17  7:54                                                   ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-17 11:37                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 18:11                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-05-16 23:01                                     ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-17  2:55                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-28  4:12                 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-28  5:51                   ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-05-28  6:13                   ` Drew Adams
2020-05-28 14:12                     ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-28 14:42                       ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-28 16:34                         ` Drew Adams
2020-05-29 14:44                           ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-28 15:00                       ` Philip K.
2020-05-28 15:13                         ` João Távora
2020-05-28 16:04                         ` T.V Raman
     [not found]                         ` <p914ks0kpui.fsf@google.com-M8R14r9----2>
2020-05-28 16:12                           ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-28 16:46                             ` T.V Raman
2020-05-28 17:34                               ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-28 18:11                               ` andres.ramirez
     [not found]                               ` <877dwwezfr.fsf@red-bean.com-M8RLd3p--3-2>
2020-05-28 18:28                                 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-29  1:12                                   ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-30  1:44                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-30  2:02                           ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-30  9:13                             ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-30 16:43                           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-05-31  7:07                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-06-08 17:37                               ` REmacs was " T.V Raman
2020-06-01  7:29                             ` Meaning behind Control-G Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-01  7:56                               ` Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-01  9:06                                 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-01 13:44                               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-06-02  1:51                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-06-02  5:58                                   ` Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-02 13:50                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2020-06-02 15:38                                     ` Drew Adams
2020-06-02 11:46                                   ` John Yates
2020-07-10 12:13                           ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre Lars Brinkhoff
2020-07-10 14:28                             ` Drew Adams
2020-07-11  2:16                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-28 16:41                       ` FW: " Drew Adams
2020-05-28 17:37                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-28 20:33                         ` Perry E. Metzger
2020-05-28 23:44                           ` T.V Raman
2020-05-29  3:04                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13 19:46           ` T.V Raman
2020-05-13 21:00           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-13 21:02           ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-13 22:22           ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-14  4:20             ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-14  0:04           ` John Wiegley
2020-05-14  5:08           ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 20:29             ` Karl Fogel
     [not found] <64c4b2e4-3c07-0ad4-bcdf-39e95cae8a57.ref@aol.com>
2020-08-09 17:11 ` Clive Tovero
2020-08-10  1:26   ` Alexandre Garreau
     [not found] <c0ffdaa1-90cc-2bb3-d2e0-93c7115df969.ref@aol.com>
2020-08-10  2:49 ` Clive Tovero

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=874ksglvsd.fsf@red-bean.com \
    --to=kfogel@red-bean.com \
    --cc=andreas.roehler@online.de \
    --cc=dgutov@yandex.ru \
    --cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
    --cc=rms@gnu.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this external index

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git
	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git

This is an external index of several public inboxes,
see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror
all data and code used by this external index.