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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>,
	Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>,
	Sergey Organov <sorganov@gmail.com>
Cc: rms@gnu.org, andreas.roehler@online.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org,
	kfogel@red-bean.com, homeros.misasa@gmail.com,
	tkk@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Subject: RE: GNU Emacs raison d'etre
Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 16:12:53 -0700 (PDT)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <5d158a63-7173-424c-9d9f-ce7856f1eae7@default> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmmjoaNrcq5AEPj-+=0iHQDqyVHrbsd_R2y+o4jvVZyiJQ@mail.gmail.com>

> > I agree that the prompts could be positioned better,
> > and the result could be better readability. After all,
> > if one uses the minibuffer a lot, isn't it a shame
> > that it resides somewhere down below, and uses
> > the same font as the rest of Emacs?
> 
> I personally think it's a very good idea.
> In combination with that, simple changes like
> giving it a border or a different background, 
              ^^^^^^                ^^^^^^^^^^
> would also help make it more visible.

FWIW, I use a separate minibuffer frame, which extends
across the bottom of the screen (by default - size &
position configurable).

I took this idea from Epoch back in the mid-90s.  The
fact that Emacs doesn't provide this as an option out
of the box, I've always thought is too bad.  (Epoch
had other UI innovations, but that's the one I missed
most when I went back to GNU Emacs.)

As a separate frame, `minibuffer-frame-alist' applies,
which includes its own default font (size, color) and
background color.  And as a frame, it has a border.
(By default, the text is larger, and red.)

Wrt positioning, one option is for moving the frame
so it's positioned near point whenever the minibuffer
is activated:

 1on1-move-minibuffer-frame-near-point is a variable
 defined in `oneonone.el'.  Its value is nil

 Documentation:
 Whether to move `1on1-minibuffer-frame' near point, and just where.

 * nil means do not move it.  

 * A single whole number, Y, means offset `top' by Y pixels from point.
   The `left' frame position is unchanged.  As always, positive is
   down (below point), negative is up (above point).

 * A cons of two whole numbers, (X . Y), means offset `left' by X and
   `top' by Y pixels from point.

   For example, (-200 . 30) moves the top left frame corner 200 pixels
   to the left and 30 pixels below point.  This option has no effect if
   `1on1-minibuffer-frame' is nil.

Personally, I prefer the default behavior, of remaining
at the bottom of the screen.  In particular, that way
it doesn't interfere with any Emacs content, anywhere.

> One frequent annoyance for me in more "modern" software
> is that the popups hide the thing they are about.

Exactly - see previous paragraph.  But I can understand
that, at least for some simple interactions, some users
like it.

That's also a problem in general for any popup frame,
whether for completions, info/help, whatever.  Some
DWIM can be applied, but the problem is inherent: how
to know just what is the most noticeable and near the
previous focus of attention, and simultaneously avoids
obscuring the info the user currently cares about.

Beyond letting users configure such behavior to some
extent, and giving some programmed positioning a bit
of "intelligence", giving users quick, keyboard, ways
to move frames around on the fly can help.

> so maybe the top positioning is a better default than
> in the center.

Top positioning has either the same problem as near
point (your annoyance: obscuring info) or the same
problem as bottom-positioning.

With my setup, other frames can be automatically
resized to fit their content, by default, in which
case they never overlap the minibuffer frame when it
stays put (e.g. at screen bottom).  (Auto-fitting of
frames can take a stay-put standalone minibuffer
frame into account, in effect reducing the available
screen space to exclude it.)

The problem with a minibuffer that stays put is that
it can be far from where your eye might currently be
focused.  That's more of a problem for the echo area
than the minibuffer, perhaps, because for the latter
you're anyway expecting to change your attention to it.

For a newbie, I think that having a separate frame,
with larger and more noticeable text takes care of
the problem of not being aware of the minibuffer or
echo-area messages - not knowing where to look or
what's expected of you.

In addition, with my setup the minibuffer frame
background changes hue slightly (configurable) when
it's active (and for each recursive minibuffer), and
also when Isearch is active.  That too helps draw
attention to it, and lets you know the interaction
status/expectation.

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Dedicated_Minibuffer_Frame

Finally, although recursive editing is disabled by
default, to protect the innocent, I think it's
underappreciated as a feature. The main problem with
it is, once again, not being aware that you're in a
recursive edit - which interaction level you're on.
To help with that I have library `rec-edit.el'.  It
highlights the mode-line [[...]] indication, to make
it clear when you're in a recursive edit, and what
level it is.

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/RecursiveEdit#rec-edit.el



  parent reply	other threads:[~2020-05-16 23:12 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 277+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-05-08  8:26 Making Emacs popular again with a video Nathan Colinet
2020-05-08 10:39 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-10 20:48   ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-08 10:41 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-10 16:18   ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-08 11:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-10 20:32   ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-11 22:59     ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-09  7:50 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-10 20:57   ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-12  3:12     ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-12  7:04       ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-12 13:59         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-12 14:47           ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-12 16:08           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-13  4:01         ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13  8:49           ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-14  5:14             ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 10:22               ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-14 10:55               ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-15  3:25                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15  7:55                   ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-15 10:11                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 10:43                       ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-15 11:23                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 19:15                     ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-15 18:41                   ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-22 19:09                   ` Ben McGinnes
     [not found]                     ` <E1jcLVP-0003SB-II@fencepost.gnu.org>
2020-05-24 19:16                       ` Ben McGinnes
2020-05-14 14:13               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-14  7:38             ` Tim Cross
2020-05-14  7:51               ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-14 14:18               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-14 15:36                 ` Tim Cross
2020-05-13 10:43           ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-12  8:23       ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-13  3:55         ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13  8:18           ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-13 10:53           ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-13 16:20             ` Drew Adams
2020-05-14  2:18             ` (emacs) Intro [was: Making Emacs popular again with a video] excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-14 12:04               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-14 21:31                 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-15  0:46                   ` Dmitry Gutov
     [not found]                   ` <d28fe30d-c192-8022-b758-d8b7019e49b5@yandex.ru-M7KnL6R----2>
2020-05-17 19:11                     ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-19 14:14                       ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
     [not found]                         ` <d66793e5-07f9-4dd9-928d-e7e8c342b781@default>
     [not found]                           ` <M7iByNw--3-2@tutanota.com>
2020-05-21 18:18                             ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
     [not found]                             ` <M7sSK-m--3-2@tutanota.com-M7sSUVm--3-2>
2020-05-28  1:21                               ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-28  7:08                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-28  7:41                                   ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-28 10:23                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-29  2:39                                   ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-29  7:28                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-29  7:40                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-29 15:14                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-30  1:39                                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 22:14                 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-15  3:17               ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15  6:36               ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-12 12:57       ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-13 16:18         ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-13 16:28           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-13 19:39           ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-13 20:05             ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-13 20:52               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-13 22:04                 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-13 22:55                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-14  4:56                     ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-14 16:37                       ` Drew Adams
2020-05-14 22:11                       ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-15  3:16                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 21:42                         ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-15 22:14                           ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-16  0:03                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-15 22:41                           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-20 21:47                             ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-20 22:35                               ` Drew Adams
2020-05-21  0:35                                 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-16  2:43                           ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-05-18  3:46                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-18 11:26                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16  8:05                           ` Yuri Khan
2020-05-16 10:36                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 10:46                               ` Yuri Khan
2020-05-17  1:28                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17  1:39                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17  1:40                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17  1:59                         ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17  2:52                           ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17  9:32                             ` Joost Kremers
2020-05-17 11:07                             ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-18  3:43                           ` transient Richard Stallman
2020-05-18  6:58                             ` transient Joost Kremers
2020-05-18 11:29                               ` transient Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 18:41                               ` transient Howard Melman
2020-05-18 19:35                                 ` transient John Yates
2020-05-18 19:57                                   ` transient Howard Melman
2020-05-19  5:38                                 ` transient Drew Adams
2020-05-19 14:00                                   ` transient Arthur Miller
2020-05-20  3:14                                     ` transient Michael Heerdegen
     [not found]                                       ` <87tuztngxr.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
2020-06-03  4:32                                         ` bug#39902: transient Michael Heerdegen
2020-06-03 22:49                                           ` bug#39902: 28.0.50; Marking in dired with active region Juri Linkov
2020-06-04 12:31                                             ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-06-04 22:18                                               ` Juri Linkov
2020-05-19 22:04                                   ` transient Stefan Kangas
2020-05-19 22:53                                     ` transient Drew Adams
2020-05-19  4:02                               ` which-key Richard Stallman
2020-05-17  7:09                         ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre Drew Adams
2020-05-20 21:36                           ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-20 21:57                             ` Drew Adams
2020-05-20 22:00                         ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-20 22:07                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-21  8:03                             ` tomas
2020-05-21  9:33                               ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-21 10:04                                 ` tomas
2020-05-24 14:05                                   ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-21 16:20                                 ` xristos
2020-05-24 13:45                                   ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-24 16:52                                     ` xristos
2020-05-24 17:00                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-24 18:31                                     ` Philip K.
2020-05-25 17:34                                   ` João Távora
2020-05-26  4:14                                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-26 11:32                                       ` João Távora
2020-05-27  3:08                                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-27  5:01                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-29 12:59                                           ` Arthur Miller
2020-06-23  3:59                                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-21 17:07                               ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-23 20:36                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-14  6:26                   ` tomas
2020-05-14  6:16               ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-15  3:18               ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-16  0:56                 ` Tak Kunihiro
2020-05-16  6:50                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16  9:10                     ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 10:38                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 12:24                         ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 12:29                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 12:34                             ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 12:46                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 13:57                                 ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 19:35                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 20:05                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-16 20:34                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 20:44                                       ` Bob Newell
2020-06-24 15:37                                         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-05-16 23:12                                       ` Drew Adams [this message]
2020-05-16 23:18                                         ` Drew Adams
2020-05-16 23:47                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17  1:14                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17  3:13                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17  6:49                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17  7:02                                                 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17  7:11                                                   ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17  9:07                                                     ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 10:20                                                       ` Marcin Borkowski
2020-05-17 11:07                                                         ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 15:25                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-17 15:48                                                         ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 17:06                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 17:31                                                             ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-17 18:57                                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 20:03                                                                 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-18  8:32                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 11:39                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 13:02                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 13:38                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 16:31                                                                         ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-18 23:14                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-19  8:41                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20  1:01                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20  9:06                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21  0:15                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-21  9:07                                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 23:16                                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-22  9:31                                                                                         ` martin rudalics
2020-05-25  2:37                                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-26  8:06                                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2020-06-05  2:40                                                                                               ` pop-up-mini-mode, was " Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-19  8:40                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20  0:40                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20  9:04                                                                         ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20 13:28                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 14:45                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 14:56                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 16:12                                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 17:45                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20 18:09                                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 18:16                                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 18:24                                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 18:33                                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 18:56                                                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 19:22                                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 19:53                                                                                             ` tomas
2020-05-20 21:22                                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-21  7:43                                                                                                 ` tomas
2020-05-21  2:28                                                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-21 22:19                                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-22  7:28                                                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-22 12:16                                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 23:07                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 13:11                                                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-21 17:55                                                                                               ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 15:57                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2020-05-19  8:41                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 18:19                                                                   ` Suppressing beginning/end-of-buffer error messages (WAS: GNU Emacs raison d'etre) Noam Postavsky
2020-05-22  9:30                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2020-05-22 12:46                                                                       ` Noam Postavsky
     [not found]                                                                         ` <11bfe86b-131c-4f55-5125-c269a73e360d@gmx.at>
2020-05-23 11:10                                                                           ` Noam Postavsky
2020-05-17 18:36                                                             ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre Drew Adams
2020-05-17 21:04                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 21:48                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 18:38                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 21:17                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 21:37                                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18  8:33                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 11:37                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 21:57                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 18:28                                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 17:59                                                       ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 18:07                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17  7:54                                                   ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-17 11:37                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 18:11                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-05-16 23:01                                     ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-17  2:55                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-28  4:12                 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-28  5:51                   ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-05-28  6:13                   ` Drew Adams
2020-05-28 14:12                     ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-28 14:42                       ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-28 16:34                         ` Drew Adams
2020-05-29 14:44                           ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-28 15:00                       ` Philip K.
2020-05-28 15:13                         ` João Távora
2020-05-28 16:04                         ` T.V Raman
     [not found]                         ` <p914ks0kpui.fsf@google.com-M8R14r9----2>
2020-05-28 16:12                           ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-28 16:46                             ` T.V Raman
2020-05-28 17:34                               ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-28 18:11                               ` andres.ramirez
     [not found]                               ` <877dwwezfr.fsf@red-bean.com-M8RLd3p--3-2>
2020-05-28 18:28                                 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-29  1:12                                   ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-30  1:44                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-30  2:02                           ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-30  9:13                             ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-30 16:43                           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-05-31  7:07                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-06-08 17:37                               ` REmacs was " T.V Raman
2020-06-01  7:29                             ` Meaning behind Control-G Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-01  7:56                               ` Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-01  9:06                                 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-01 13:44                               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-06-02  1:51                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-06-02  5:58                                   ` Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-02 13:50                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2020-06-02 15:38                                     ` Drew Adams
2020-06-02 11:46                                   ` John Yates
2020-07-10 12:13                           ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre Lars Brinkhoff
2020-07-10 14:28                             ` Drew Adams
2020-07-11  2:16                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-28 16:41                       ` FW: " Drew Adams
2020-05-28 17:37                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-28 20:33                         ` Perry E. Metzger
2020-05-28 23:44                           ` T.V Raman
2020-05-29  3:04                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13 19:46           ` T.V Raman
2020-05-13 21:00           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-13 21:02           ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-13 22:22           ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-14  4:20             ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-14  0:04           ` John Wiegley
2020-05-14  5:08           ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 20:29             ` Karl Fogel
     [not found] <64c4b2e4-3c07-0ad4-bcdf-39e95cae8a57.ref@aol.com>
2020-08-09 17:11 ` Clive Tovero
2020-08-10  1:26   ` Alexandre Garreau
     [not found] <c0ffdaa1-90cc-2bb3-d2e0-93c7115df969.ref@aol.com>
2020-08-10  2:49 ` Clive Tovero

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