From: John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Cc: "David Kastrup" <dak@gnu.org>,
"Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com>,
"Kaushal Modi" <kaushal.modi@gmail.com>,
"Emacs developers" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,
"Oleh Krehel" <ohwoeowho@gmail.com>,
"Dmitry Gutov" <dgutov@yandex.ru>,
"João Távora" <joaotavora@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: use-package.el -> Emacs core
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:35:58 -0800 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <m2r3jx4pgh.fsf@Vulcan.attlocal.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <28f5b010-5f5a-431c-bdff-320f270f8c9d@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:24:50 -0800 (PST)")
>>>>> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
> Sure, but it's not an argument that just _because_ some end users are
> unaware of something that is used by other end users (especially if there is
> no alternative to using that something) it _follows_ that that thing is not
> "end-user". That's a phony argument.
>
> `define-key' is "end-user" because end users sometimes want/need to use
> keymaps other than `global-map', and it is their only way to do that. It
> might not be "end-user" enough for you, but that is something different.
>
> It is only the argument that I find fault with, not the attempt to come up
> with something better or more end-userish.
Ah, OK, I concede your point. I have no grounds for saying define-key *isn't*
user facing, just that I'd like a clearer divide between what developers would
use for this functionality, and something that caters more to users.
> FWIW, I also object to some kind of definite line, dividing non-Lisp Emacs
> users from "internal/programmatic mechanisms" and Lisp. There is naturally a
> spectrum of Emacs usage that involves different degrees of using Lisp. And
> that's a good thing. All kinds of Emacs user are welcome.
Yes!
> It is a mistake to draw a hard line between Emacs "end use" and Lisp. Lisp
> vastly increases one's use of Emacs. Without some use of Lisp, you are not
> really taking advantage of Emacs. You might even say that you are not
> _really_ using it.
>
> We should, yes, cater to helping novice users who do not know Lisp. But we
> should also encourage the use of Lisp with Emacs, not discourage it. You
> don't need Lisp to start using Emacs. But if you really want to use Emacs
> then you will want to learn some Lisp. That should not be because you _have
> to_ learn it, but because you can do so much more with Emacs if you do.
So we probably agree that Emacs is a spectrum from "application" to
"programming heaven", and that while we'd like to be a good tool at every
point along that spectrum, we shouldn't discourage a gradual migration
towards the bliss most of us have found.
>> I'm the one acting on behalf of those users.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
> You are not the only one. Lots of us here keep those users in mind and try
> to act on their behalf. I'm glad you do too. Welcome aboard. ;-)
I'm very glad to hear that. :)
John
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-11-10 19:35 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 95+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-11-10 0:02 use-package.el -> Emacs core John Wiegley
2015-11-10 0:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-10 0:31 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 0:40 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-10 7:55 ` Oleh Krehel
2015-11-10 11:52 ` Juanma Barranquero
2015-11-10 12:10 ` Oleh Krehel
2015-11-10 12:23 ` Juanma Barranquero
2015-11-10 12:40 ` Oleh Krehel
2015-11-10 12:47 ` Juanma Barranquero
2015-11-10 15:15 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 15:42 ` Juanma Barranquero
2015-11-10 15:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-11 0:37 ` Stephen Leake
2015-11-11 0:56 ` Juanma Barranquero
2015-11-10 15:55 ` João Távora
2015-11-10 16:08 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 16:23 ` Drew Adams
2015-11-10 14:03 ` David Kastrup
2015-11-10 14:15 ` Oleh Krehel
2015-11-10 14:22 ` João Távora
2015-11-10 15:17 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 15:46 ` João Távora
2015-11-10 18:15 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 19:32 ` João Távora
2015-11-10 19:47 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 21:00 ` João Távora
2015-11-10 15:56 ` Kaushal Modi
2015-11-10 18:20 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 18:32 ` Drew Adams
2015-11-10 18:38 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 18:52 ` Kaushal Modi
2015-11-10 18:55 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 19:24 ` Drew Adams
2015-11-10 19:35 ` John Wiegley [this message]
2015-11-10 20:42 ` Drew Adams
2015-11-10 12:42 ` Kaushal Modi
2015-11-10 12:46 ` David Kastrup
2015-11-10 13:06 ` Oleh Krehel
2015-11-10 18:15 ` Evgeny Panasyuk
2015-11-10 18:31 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-11-10 13:32 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2015-11-10 15:08 ` Customize is only for newbies? [was: use-package.el -> Emacs core] Drew Adams
2015-11-11 0:01 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2015-11-10 14:58 ` Drew Adams
2015-11-10 15:42 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 8:49 ` use-package.el -> Emacs core João Távora
2015-11-10 8:57 ` Pedro Silva
2015-11-10 9:45 ` João Távora
2015-11-10 12:01 ` Phillip Lord
2015-11-10 13:37 ` João Távora
2015-11-10 14:07 ` Oleh Krehel
2015-11-10 14:39 ` Nicolas Richard
2015-11-10 14:48 ` João Távora
2015-11-10 15:40 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-12 12:43 ` Nicolas Richard
2015-11-10 17:36 ` Phillip Lord
2015-11-10 0:44 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-11-10 1:05 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 1:24 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-11-10 1:37 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 3:20 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-11-10 5:37 ` Kaushal Modi
2015-11-10 6:07 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 23:27 ` Stephen Leake
2015-11-10 23:32 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-11 9:29 ` Oleh Krehel
2015-11-11 16:48 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-11 20:04 ` Kaushal Modi
2015-11-11 20:10 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-12 2:11 ` Copyright assignments in Gnu Elpa (was: use-package.el -> Emacs core) Michael Heerdegen
2015-11-12 2:19 ` Copyright assignments in Gnu Elpa John Wiegley
2015-11-12 3:50 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-11-12 22:31 ` Copyright assignments in Gnu Elpa (was: use-package.el -> Emacs core) Richard Stallman
2015-11-15 14:51 ` Copyright assignments in Gnu Elpa Andreas Röhler
2015-11-16 19:30 ` Richard Stallman
2015-11-10 1:37 ` use-package.el -> Emacs core Ted Zlatanov
2015-11-10 8:24 ` joakim
2015-11-11 0:29 ` Stephen Leake
2015-11-11 0:45 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-11 9:30 ` Stephen Leake
2015-11-11 10:04 ` Xue Fuqiao
2015-11-11 10:20 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-11-10 8:44 ` Andreas Röhler
2015-11-10 9:29 ` Nicolas Petton
2015-11-11 0:32 ` Stephen Leake
2015-11-11 0:37 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 18:21 ` Stephen Leake
2015-11-10 18:34 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 19:54 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-10 20:09 ` Kaushal Modi
2015-11-10 20:27 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-11 0:04 ` Stephen Leake
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2017-02-15 19:49 Toon Claes
2017-02-15 19:51 ` John Wiegley
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