From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: use-package.el -> Emacs core Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:35:58 -0800 Message-ID: References: <564136F7.2020404@yandex.ru> <877flqe1a4.fsf@gmail.com> <87twoucaxz.fsf@gmail.com> <877flqc9jh.fsf@gmail.com> <87twout0iu.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <2395453e-37c2-47ea-af8b-8c7cab19a7a8@default> <28f5b010-5f5a-431c-bdff-320f270f8c9d@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1447184676 21371 80.91.229.3 (10 Nov 2015 19:44:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:44:36 +0000 (UTC) Cc: David Kastrup , Juanma Barranquero , Kaushal Modi , Emacs developers , Oleh Krehel , Dmitry Gutov , =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 10 20:44:35 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZwEqI-0002wb-Eu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:44:34 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35144 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZwEqI-0004yH-C8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:44:34 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39829) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZwEpq-0004ui-K4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:44:07 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZwEpp-0004CC-LO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:44:06 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]:35644) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZwEpk-0004AF-0q; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:44:00 -0500 Original-Received: by pasz6 with SMTP id z6so6207598pas.2; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:43:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version:content-type; bh=i5wEymp8NCZP7HdLlTEHrYwQgPT8ng2qZsWouRpFaac=; b=PKdPaIsfkXNME6ZgN+fwf9CJSsuMn6Ji/mXQL2AUc1wHBoxWUSQ04miKzanQDhFkPS iZPV2PN2OH1TsukXE5vb1FVOVhqYHSo/jsNG1sc4uq3ytodDiKbDGnbRnKA+mXufWW2q /zaJJp/d+APGK9orGi8QsmHPNh498C8qZKxqcnaXUp9jM3/IrdguVQMm+n7oBUxsvOys Z8KbctX0S7AaoyQeZFlyD9PY+wMxGo2iolCYsAOMT+7NwQnZFD5J+a0TVgkPXHc/6Mc0 iJRk+igAIW1ilueOkzjwpO7S5KkmfTgaj5U9QLi7tqP3XsEL+XmK6ZNIAKCChGZihWSW uZQw== X-Received: by 10.66.193.38 with SMTP id hl6mr8429531pac.85.1447184639201; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:43:59 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Vulcan.attlocal.net (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id sb6sm5582681pbc.66.2015.11.10.11.43.57 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:43:57 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Received: by Vulcan.attlocal.net (Postfix, from userid 501) id E2D571053AF04; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:43:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <28f5b010-5f5a-431c-bdff-320f270f8c9d@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:24:50 -0800 (PST)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: Drew Adams , Kaushal Modi , David Kastrup , Juanma Barranquero , Emacs developers , Oleh Krehel , Dmitry Gutov , =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:193943 Archived-At: >>>>> Drew Adams writes: > Sure, but it's not an argument that just _because_ some end users are > unaware of something that is used by other end users (especially if there is > no alternative to using that something) it _follows_ that that thing is not > "end-user". That's a phony argument. > > `define-key' is "end-user" because end users sometimes want/need to use > keymaps other than `global-map', and it is their only way to do that. It > might not be "end-user" enough for you, but that is something different. > > It is only the argument that I find fault with, not the attempt to come up > with something better or more end-userish. Ah, OK, I concede your point. I have no grounds for saying define-key *isn't* user facing, just that I'd like a clearer divide between what developers would use for this functionality, and something that caters more to users. > FWIW, I also object to some kind of definite line, dividing non-Lisp Emacs > users from "internal/programmatic mechanisms" and Lisp. There is naturally a > spectrum of Emacs usage that involves different degrees of using Lisp. And > that's a good thing. All kinds of Emacs user are welcome. Yes! > It is a mistake to draw a hard line between Emacs "end use" and Lisp. Lisp > vastly increases one's use of Emacs. Without some use of Lisp, you are not > really taking advantage of Emacs. You might even say that you are not > _really_ using it. > > We should, yes, cater to helping novice users who do not know Lisp. But we > should also encourage the use of Lisp with Emacs, not discourage it. You > don't need Lisp to start using Emacs. But if you really want to use Emacs > then you will want to learn some Lisp. That should not be because you _have > to_ learn it, but because you can do so much more with Emacs if you do. So we probably agree that Emacs is a spectrum from "application" to "programming heaven", and that while we'd like to be a good tool at every point along that spectrum, we shouldn't discourage a gradual migration towards the bliss most of us have found. >> I'm the one acting on behalf of those users. > ^^^^^^^^^^^ > You are not the only one. Lots of us here keep those users in mind and try > to act on their behalf. I'm glad you do too. Welcome aboard. ;-) I'm very glad to hear that. :) John