Re: master 556c304007 2/2: * .dir-locals.el: Set emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column.

Re: master 556c304007 2/2: * .dir-locals.el: Set emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column.

[Stefan Kangas]

Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> writes:

> branch: master
> commit 556c304007fbea1a552c65529fa86c0a5637b27b
> Author: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>
> Commit: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>
>
>     * .dir-locals.el: Set emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column.
> ---
>  .dir-locals.el | 1 +
>  1 file changed, 1 insertion(+)
>
> diff --git a/.dir-locals.el b/.dir-locals.el
> index b313945936..7812beb001 100644
> --- a/.dir-locals.el
> +++ b/.dir-locals.el
> @@ -4,6 +4,7 @@
>  ((nil . ((tab-width . 8)
>           (sentence-end-double-space . t)
>           (fill-column . 70)
> +        (emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column . 65)

Why set this here if it's the same as the default?

And why don't we raise the default to 70 to get ready for the larger
displays of the early 2000's?

Re: master 556c304007 2/2: * .dir-locals.el: Set emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column.

[Juri Linkov]

>> +        (emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column . 65)
>
> Why set this here if it's the same as the default?
>
> And why don't we raise the default to 70 to get ready for the larger
> displays of the early 2000's?

Why not 75?  It's still less than the hard limit of 80 characters
for the 80x24 terminal window.

Re: master 556c304007 2/2: * .dir-locals.el: Set emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column.

[Sean Whitton]

Hello,

On Wed 06 Jul 2022 at 08:13PM +02, Stefan Kangas wrote:

> Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> writes:
>
>> branch: master
>> commit 556c304007fbea1a552c65529fa86c0a5637b27b
>> Author: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>
>> Commit: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>
>>
>>     * .dir-locals.el: Set emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column.
>> ---
>>  .dir-locals.el | 1 +
>>  1 file changed, 1 insertion(+)
>>
>> diff --git a/.dir-locals.el b/.dir-locals.el
>> index b313945936..7812beb001 100644
>> --- a/.dir-locals.el
>> +++ b/.dir-locals.el
>> @@ -4,6 +4,7 @@
>>  ((nil . ((tab-width . 8)
>>           (sentence-end-double-space . t)
>>           (fill-column . 70)
>> +        (emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column . 65)
>
> Why set this here if it's the same as the default?

I've got it set to something different in my init.el, but I thought
there is an implicit convention for narrower docstrings in emacs.git.

-- 
Sean Whitton

Re: master 556c304007 2/2: * .dir-locals.el: Set emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column.

[Stefan Kangas]

Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:

> >> +        (emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column . 65)
> >
> > And why don't we raise the default to 70 to get ready for the larger
> > displays of the early 2000's?
>
> Why not 75?  It's still less than the hard limit of 80 characters
> for the 80x24 terminal window.

Fine by me, but `fill-column' defaults to 70 and I guess it would be
nice if they were the same.

Maybe 72 or 78 (RFC 2822) is more standard though.

RE: [External] : Re: master 556c304007 2/2: * .dir-locals.el: Set emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column.

[Drew Adams]

> > >> + (emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column . 65)
> > >
> > > And why don't we raise the default to 70 to get 
> > > ready for the larger displays of the early 2000's?
> >
> > Why not 75?  It's still less than the hard limit of 80 characters
> > for the 80x24 terminal window.
> 
> Fine by me, but `fill-column' defaults to 70 and I guess it would be
> nice if they were the same.
> 
> Maybe 72 or 78 (RFC 2822) is more standard though.

Just leave all such default values as they are, please.

There's no reason to change them just because some
people use wide monitors sometimes with Emacs.

There are many kinds of displays now, and there will
be many more to come, from phones to zignosters and
trilopiths.

The default line-length is fine.  And it serves the
eye well for reading.  There's a reason newsprint
columns aren't typically 250 or 314 chars wide.

It's SO EASY for a user to customize this, and SO
EASY to set it on the fly (`C-x f').

RFC 2822 is about internet messages.  It's irrelevant
here.

But you might want to argue that it could be relevant
to some Emacs modes that compose messages.  Go ahead
and argue that - change the default for some modes,
if you must (after some discussion), but leave the
_default_ default alone.

And text line length can have a different effect
depending on the font, in particular fixed vs variable
width.  Someone might want to change the default
automatically when moving between those font types -
e.g. create a minor mode that does that.

Changing defaults, including this one, should be
based on good reasons AND, preferably, some evidence
of actual user practice (settings).

___

RFC 2822:
 "The more conservative 78 character recommendation
  is to accommodate the many implementations of user
  interfaces that display these messages which may
  truncate, or disastrously wrap, the display of
  more than 78 characters per line"

RE: [External] : Re: master 556c304007 2/2: * .dir-locals.el: Set emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column.

[Stefan Kangas]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> It's SO EASY for a user to customize this, and SO
> EASY to set it on the fly (`C-x f').

We seem to be miscommunicating.  I am discussing the default width of
docstrings in Emacs itself (and indeed in Emacs Lisp generally), which
is not something that users can customize.

I would love it if ELisp docstrings were written in a format that
allowed us to re-fill them on the fly, though.

RE: [External] : Re: master 556c304007 2/2: * .dir-locals.el: Set emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column.

[Drew Adams]

> > It's SO EASY for a user to customize this, and SO
> > EASY to set it on the fly (`C-x f').
> 
> We seem to be miscommunicating.  I am discussing the default width of
> docstrings in Emacs itself (and indeed in Emacs Lisp generally), which
> is not something that users can customize.

I thought you were talking about both (separately).

Anyway, my comments are about both: Please don't
change the existing default for `fill-column',
and please don't change the existing convention
for doc-string line lengths or the default for
`emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column'.

The existence of wider monitors is a red herring
- not a good reason to change those.

> I would love it if ELisp docstrings were written in a
> format that allowed us to re-fill them on the fly, though.

Refill them when/where?  In source code?
When displayed in `*Help*' (after `C-x C-q')?

Why can't you do that now?  Or just what do you
mean by "on the fly", here?

And what "user customizations" are you looking
for?  You can certainly customize `fill-column'.

Or you can add a function (to set `fill-column'
to some value) to `help-mode-hook', in effect
customizing it buffer-locally.

And you can use `M-q` in `*Help*' to refill any
paragraphs to your custom column (or "on the fly"
to any other column, if you use `C-x f').

If this isn't enough then `M-x report-emacs-bug'
to request your particular enhancement.

RE: [External] : Re: master 556c304007 2/2: * .dir-locals.el: Set emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column.

[Stefan Kangas]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> Refill them when/where?  In source code?
> When displayed in `*Help*' (after `C-x C-q')?

I mean when displayed in *Help*.

> Why can't you do that now?

I don't know of any way to refill docstrings reliably.