Re: Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package)

[Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com>]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> AFAICT the problem seen from Emacs, is that Org is large (even for
> a basic uses, which occasionally leads to high load times) and that it
> doesn't follow all the usual Emacs conventions, such as
> overriding/remapping standard key-bindings (the resulting behaviors may
> sometimes be similar to the standard one, but even when that's the case
> the redefinition can easily bite the user).

I am not sure if I follow the argument. Major modes are allowed to
change defaults. For example, special modes often change truncate-lines
value. Org mode is also tweaking defaults (yes, many of them). I do not
see any problem here in general.

If you have some specific cases when Org mode alters Emacs defaults in a
way that bites the user, please give concrete examples. Otherwise, your
criticism is not very constructive.

> The problem seen from Org is that Emacs doesn't use Org enough :-)
> [ This paragraph's shorter length probably reflects the fact that I'm
>   less familiar with Org than with Emacs.  ]
>
> I think the way forward is to define a "basic org-mode".  This one could
> be used at many more places where there's currently an occasional desire
> to use Org that's resisted because of the above problems.
> Ideally, org-mode would then be defined as an extension of this "basic
> org-mode".  Also ideally some of those extensions would be reworked so
> they can be used "Emacs-wide" rather than only in Org (obviously, that
> can only make sense for some of them).
>
> We could start this "basic org-mode" as a trivial copycat of
> `outline-mode` and then start adding Org features to it.  The driving
> constraint is to keep it lightweight and rules-abiding enough that there
> won't be any resistance to using it, while at the same time making sure
> that the features added to it can be removed from the "org-mode
> extension", so that org-mode and "basic org-mode" don't diverge.

This is reasonable. RMS also asked for this years back
https://orgmode.org/list/E1kIPh1-0001Lu-Rg@fencepost.gnu.org
Since we cannot start Org from scratch, factoring out individual modules
is taking a lot of time and having the hostile attitudes expressed in
some of the emails in this thread is not exactly encouraging.
If you want Org to be more modular, please help by reporting
inconsistencies or misbehavior to Org ML.

Best,
Ihor