24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

[Sam Steingold]

byte compilation now warns

.emacs.el:46:39:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
.emacs.el:46:39:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
.emacs.el:46:39:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
.emacs.el:46:39:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
.emacs.el:1255:20:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
.emacs.el:1259:43:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

for forms like

(eval-and-compile (defvar ...))

and

(defvar (eval-and-compile ...))

why is ((lambda ...) ...) deprecated?
this is one of the oldest lisp constructs!

if it is to be deprecated, then the macros above must be modified so
that their compilation does not warn.

In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.4.2)
 of 2012-11-09 on t520sds
Bzr revision: 110854 dmantipov@yandex.ru-20121109113831-qc320e2iyim99bq8
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11103000
System Description:	Ubuntu 12.04.1 LTS

Configured using:
 `configure '--with-wide-int''

Important settings:
  value of $LC_COLLATE: C
  value of $LANG: C
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
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C-x C-f . e m <tab> e <tab> <backspace> <tab> <return> 
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<mouse-2> <help-echo> <help-echo> <help-echo> <select-window> 
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e m - r - b <tab> <backspace> <backspace> <tab> <tab> 
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eturn>

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Features:
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-- 
Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on Ubuntu 12.04 (precise) X 11.0.11103000
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http://mideasttruth.com http://openvotingconsortium.org http://think-israel.org
If you know that you know nothing, you know too much.

Re: 24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

[Stefan Monnier]

[ Please use M-x report-emacs-bug (or send it to
  bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org). ]

> byte compilation now warns
> .emacs.el:46:39:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
> .emacs.el:46:39:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
> .emacs.el:46:39:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
> .emacs.el:46:39:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
> .emacs.el:1255:20:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
> .emacs.el:1259:43:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
> for forms like
> (eval-and-compile (defvar ...))

Oh, sorry I forgot one hunk.  Should be fixed now.

> why is ((lambda ...) ...) deprecated?

Why not?

> this is one of the oldest lisp constructs!

Old doesn't make it good.  If you want to bind local variables, you know
where to find `let', don't you?

> If it is to be deprecated, then the macros above must be modified so
> that their compilation does not warn.

Actually, the problem was much deeper than in those macros.  But yes, it
needs to be fixed.


        Stefan

Re: 24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

[Paul Eggert]

On 11/09/2012 07:59 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> Old doesn't make it good.  If you want to bind local variables,
> you know where to find `let', don't you?

I agree with Sam.  The equivalence of 'let' to 'lambda'
is a standard koan of Lisp.  We shouldn't discard it
so lightly.

Re: 24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

[Sam Steingold]

> * Stefan Monnier <zbaavre@VEB.HZbagerny.PN> [2012-11-09 10:59:36 -0500]:
>
> [ Please use M-x report-emacs-bug (or send it to
>   bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org). ]

I thought that list was only for released versions.

>> byte compilation now warns
>> .emacs.el:46:39:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
>> .emacs.el:46:39:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
>> .emacs.el:46:39:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
>> .emacs.el:46:39:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
>> .emacs.el:1255:20:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
>> .emacs.el:1259:43:Warning: Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form
>> for forms like
>> (eval-and-compile (defvar ...))
>
> Oh, sorry I forgot one hunk.  Should be fixed now.

thanks.

>> why is ((lambda ...) ...) deprecated?
> Why not?

because it is useful and beautiful.

>> this is one of the oldest lisp constructs!
>
> Old doesn't make it good.  If you want to bind local variables, you
> know where to find `let', don't you?

Lisp is rich in tradition and folklore.
We should not abandon them without much thought.

-- 
Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on Ubuntu 12.04 (precise) X 11.0.11103000
http://www.childpsy.net/ http://openvotingconsortium.org
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RE: 24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

[Drew Adams]

> > why is ((lambda...)...) deprecated?
> Why not?

Really?  We're now deprecating things without giving any reason?

And instead we need to provide reasons _not_ to deprecate everything?
Deprecation by default?

> > this is one of the oldest lisp constructs!
> Old doesn't make it good.

Does old make it bad?  Is everything bad now, by default?  No need to say why
something is bad, in order to deprecate it?

This policy or way of proceeding seems quite misguided, if not downright wrong.
But maybe I'm missing something.

Re: 24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

[Glenn Morris]

Sam Steingold wrote:

>> [ Please use M-x report-emacs-bug (or send it to
>>   bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org). ]
>
> I thought that list was only for released versions.

Not since several years ago. And then there was emacs-pretest-bug, which
is now just an alias to it.

Re: 24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

[Stefan Monnier]

>> > why is ((lambda...)...) deprecated?
>> Why not?
> Really?  We're now deprecating things without giving any reason?

I did give a reason: because there doesn't seem to be any reason not to.

> And instead we need to provide reasons _not_ to deprecate everything?

Welcome to life.


        Stefan

Re: 24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

[Sam Steingold]

> * Glenn Morris <etz@tah.bet> [2012-11-09 12:05:26 -0500]:
>
> Sam Steingold wrote:
>
>>> [ Please use M-x report-emacs-bug (or send it to
>>>   bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org). ]
>>
>> I thought that list was only for released versions.
>
> Not since several years ago. And then there was emacs-pretest-bug,
> which is now just an alias to it.

I stand corrected and properly ashamed.

-- 
Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on Ubuntu 12.04 (precise) X 11.0.11103000
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God had a deadline, so He wrote it all in Lisp.

Re: 24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

[Sam Steingold]

> * Stefan Monnier <zbaavre@VEB.HZbagerny.PN> [2012-11-09 12:54:10 -0500]:
>
>>> > why is ((lambda...)...) deprecated?
>>> Why not?
>> Really?  We're now deprecating things without giving any reason?
>
> I did give a reason: because there doesn't seem to be any reason not to.
>
>> And instead we need to provide reasons _not_ to deprecate everything?
>
> Welcome to life.

I just checked the calendar - it is _NOT_ April First.

-- 
Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on Ubuntu 12.04 (precise) X 11.0.11103000
http://www.childpsy.net/ http://truepeace.org http://think-israel.org
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Re: 24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

[Barry OReilly]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 449 bytes --]

>> > why is ((lambda...)...) deprecated?

Is it because of this kind of inconsistency?

(funcall (lambda () (message "hi")))         ; Prints "hi"
(funcall (progn (lambda () (message "hi")))) ; Prints "hi"

((lambda () (message "hi")))                 ; Prints "hi"
((progn (lambda () (message "hi"))))         ; Lisp error:
(invalid-function (progn (lambda nil (message "hi"))))

One would hope either that the last two both work or both not work.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1432 bytes --]

Re: 24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

[Stefan Monnier]

BTW, if you like to put non-symbols at the head of expressions, you
might like to try M-: ((macro . eval) '(+ 1 2)) RET


        Stefan

Re: 24.3.50; Use of deprecated ((lambda ...) ...) form

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Barry OReilly writes:
 > >> > why is ((lambda...)...) deprecated?
 > 
 > Is it because of this kind of inconsistency?
 > 
 > (funcall (lambda () (message "hi")))         ; Prints "hi"
 > (funcall (progn (lambda () (message "hi")))) ; Prints "hi"
 > 
 > ((lambda () (message "hi")))                 ; Prints "hi"
 > ((progn (lambda () (message "hi"))))         ; Lisp error:
 > (invalid-function (progn (lambda nil (message "hi"))))
 > 
 > One would hope either that the last two both work or both not work.

Where do you see an inconsistency?  A lambda expression is both
functionp and self-evaluating.  A progn is neither.  The first two
work because funcall evaluates its arguments, and they both evaluate
to a lambda expression.  The third works because a lambda expression
is functionp.  The fourth fails because a progn expression is not
functionp.

OIC, you think Emacs Lisp should be a Lisp-1.  I tend to agree, but it
ain't.  Sorry! :-)

I think Stefan misspoke when he said "if you want to bind locals, you
know where to find `let'."  I think what he really meant "if you want
code to look like Brainf!ck, you know where to find that language."

That is to say, as a matter of style for coding Emacs, I agree, such
expressions should be deprecated, as they are just a way for
old-timers and young pedants to show off.  On the other hand, they
express a deep truth about Lisp, and I would be saddened (and refuse
to follow suit where I actually have a say in the matter) if this
idiom were seriously deprecated in user code.