Showing end of buffer

Showing end of buffer

[Richard Stallman]

Dan Jacobson suggested

    Well, it turns out that if you add a special mark for the beginning of
    the file in the very left margin, then one does not anymore need to
    rely on "Top" in the modeline to tell us we are on top.

What would people think of displaying a special kind of horizontal
line reaching across the width of the window, to indicate the
beginning and end of the buffer?

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Miles Bader]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> What would people think of displaying a special kind of horizontal
> line reaching across the width of the window, to indicate the
> beginning and end of the buffer?

I think a line across the whole window sounds way too heavyweight --
while it's nice to see quickly if I'm at the beginning/end of a file, I
don't want my eye constantly drawn to the associated marker (which is
especially likely for the end, where it usually wouldn't be on the edge
of the window, and so would be more prominent).  Perhaps a marker in in
the fringe(s) would be good though.

In the fringe, the marker could some sort of icon for the first and
last lines, instead of a line before/after them; then it could be big
enough to allow some freedom in design.

-Miles
-- 
A zen-buddhist walked into a pizza shop and
said, "Make me one with everything."

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Karl Eichwalder]

Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> writes:

> Perhaps a marker in in the fringe(s) would be good though.

This sound like a good idea.

> In the fringe, the marker could some sort of icon for the first and
> last lines, instead of a line before/after them; then it could be big
> enough to allow some freedom in design.

As long as I didn't reach the start or end of the buffer, I'd like to
see a simple up or down arrow.  At start or end you can display a
horizontal bar.

I'd also be interested in vertical widgets signaling horizontal limits
(line length resp. fill-columns); as long as you use monospaced fonts
such a feature isn't that important (you can display the current column
in the modeline), but when it comes to proportional fonts and enriched
mode a ruler would be handy.

-- 
                                                         |      ,__o
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |    _-\_<,
ke@suse.de (work) / keichwa@gmx.net (home)               |   (*)/'(*)

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Dan Jacobson suggested
> 
>     Well, it turns out that if you add a special mark for the
>     beginning of the file in the very left margin, then one does not
>     anymore need to rely on "Top" in the modeline to tell us we are
>     on top.
> 
> What would people think of displaying a special kind of horizontal
> line reaching across the width of the window, to indicate the
> beginning and end of the buffer?

Nice idea!  A colored horizontal bar stretching across the window
would be sufficient IMHO (of course this should be customizable).


    Werner

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Miles Bader]

Karl Eichwalder <keichwa@gmx.net> writes:
> > In the fringe, the marker could some sort of icon for the first and
> > last lines, instead of a line before/after them; then it could be big
> > enough to allow some freedom in design.
>
> As long as I didn't reach the start or end of the buffer, I'd like to
> see a simple up or down arrow.  At start or end you can display a
> horizontal bar.

Something like these (for top; flip vertically for end)?

       ##                    ########
      ####    (not top)      ########   (top; a `T' might be prettier,
     ######                  ########    but it's easier to confuse with
    ########                 #           the arrow)
       ##                    #
       ##                    #

[I think the current symbols are 8x8 pixels monochrome, so there's not
much room]

> I'd also be interested in vertical widgets signaling horizontal limits

Where would they go, though?

-Miles
--
o The existentialist, not having a pillow, goes everywhere with the book by
  Sullivan, _I am going to spit on your graves_.

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Karl Eichwalder]

Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> writes:

> Something like these (for top; flip vertically for end)?
>
>        ##                    ########
>       ####    (not top)      ########   (top; a `T' might be prettier,
>      ######                  ########    but it's easier to confuse with
>     ########                 #           the arrow)
>        ##                    #
>        ##                    #

Yes, perfect!  Let's avoid letters, otherwise we will have to translate
them in the long run (i18n, hint!).

>> I'd also be interested in vertical widgets signaling horizontal limits
>
> Where would they go, though?

Maybe it's time to design yet another bar -- a "ruler bar" the user can
switch on and off as desired?

-- 
                                                         |      ,__o
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |    _-\_<,
ke@suse.de (work) / keichwa@gmx.net (home)               |   (*)/'(*)

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kai Großjohann]

Karl Eichwalder <keichwa@gmx.net> writes:

> I'd also be interested in vertical widgets signaling horizontal limits
> (line length resp. fill-columns); as long as you use monospaced fonts
> such a feature isn't that important (you can display the current column
> in the modeline), but when it comes to proportional fonts and enriched
> mode a ruler would be handy.

How about the header line?  Try M-x ruler-mode RET.
-- 
file-error; Data: (Opening input file no such file or directory ~/.signature)

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Karl Eichwalder]

kai.grossjohann@gmx.net (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> How about the header line?  Try M-x ruler-mode RET.

That's exactly what I meant; I wasn't aware of this feature, sorry.

-- 
                                                         |      ,__o
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |    _-\_<,
ke@suse.de (work) / keichwa@gmx.net (home)               |   (*)/'(*)

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Simon Josefsson]

Karl Eichwalder <keichwa@gmx.net> writes:

> Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> writes:
>
>> Perhaps a marker in in the fringe(s) would be good though.
>
> This sound like a good idea.

It isn't a replacement for Top/Bot in modeline though, as the fringe
doesn't show on tty's.  But as a complement, I agree it is a good idea.

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Stefan Monnier]

> I'd also be interested in vertical widgets signaling horizontal limits
> (line length resp. fill-columns); as long as you use monospaced fonts
> such a feature isn't that important (you can display the current column
> in the modeline), but when it comes to proportional fonts and enriched
> mode a ruler would be handy.

As Kai said, you're looking for M-x ruler-mode.
But I don't understand your specific need, tho: fill-column and
friends currently don't take proportional fonts into account anyway
so the ruler-mode thingy will only give accurate info for
monospaced fonts.


	Stefan

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Richard Stallman]

    > As long as I didn't reach the start or end of the buffer, I'd like to
    > see a simple up or down arrow.  At start or end you can display a
    > horizontal bar.

Perhaps the scroll bar arrows could change into some other shape
when there is no further distance to scroll.

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Miles Bader]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> Perhaps the scroll bar arrows could change into some other shape
> when there is no further distance to scroll.

There are two problems I see with this -- (1) it may not be possible
with all the toolkit scrollbars (and at the least will require separate
code for each one), and (2) only works if you've got scrollbars turned
on.

Personally, I often turn off the scrollbars, so a solution using the
fringe would be nice [anyway, as the fringe is reserved space that's
often empty, it'd be nice to have more uses for it!]

-Miles
-- 
We live, as we dream -- alone....

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kim F. Storm]

Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> writes:

> Karl Eichwalder <keichwa@gmx.net> writes:
> > > In the fringe, the marker could some sort of icon for the first and
> > > last lines, instead of a line before/after them; then it could be big
> > > enough to allow some freedom in design.
> >
> > As long as I didn't reach the start or end of the buffer, I'd like to
> > see a simple up or down arrow.  At start or end you can display a
> > horizontal bar.
> 
> Something like these (for top; flip vertically for end)?
> 
>        ##                    ########
>       ####    (not top)      ########   (top; a `T' might be prettier,
>      ######                  ########    but it's easier to confuse with
>     ########                 #           the arrow)
>        ##                    #
>        ##                    #
> 
> [I think the current symbols are 8x8 pixels monochrome, so there's not
> much room]
> 

I just installed patches to CVS emacs to enable this behaviour.  Try

        (setq default-indicate-buffer-boundaries t)

I have updated the w32 and mac code to support this as well, but
I cannot test it...

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Michael Welsh Duggan]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> writes:
>
>> Karl Eichwalder <keichwa@gmx.net> writes:
>> > > In the fringe, the marker could some sort of icon for the first and
>> > > last lines, instead of a line before/after them; then it could be big
>> > > enough to allow some freedom in design.
>> >
>> > As long as I didn't reach the start or end of the buffer, I'd like to
>> > see a simple up or down arrow.  At start or end you can display a
>> > horizontal bar.
>> 
>> Something like these (for top; flip vertically for end)?
>> 
>>        ##                    ########
>>       ####    (not top)      ########   (top; a `T' might be prettier,
>>      ######                  ########    but it's easier to confuse with
>>     ########                 #           the arrow)
>>        ##                    #
>>        ##                    #
>> 
>> [I think the current symbols are 8x8 pixels monochrome, so there's not
>> much room]
>> 
>
> I just installed patches to CVS emacs to enable this behaviour.  Try
>
>         (setq default-indicate-buffer-boundaries t)
>
> I have updated the w32 and mac code to support this as well, but
> I cannot test it...

I'd just like to say that I *really* like this behavior.

-- 
Michael Welsh Duggan
(md5i@cs.cmu.edu)

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kevin Rodgers]

Kim F. Storm wrote:

> Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> writes:
>>Something like these (for top; flip vertically for end)?
>>
>>       ##                    ########
>>      ####    (not top)      ########   (top; a `T' might be prettier,
>>     ######                  ########    but it's easier to confuse with
>>    ########                 #           the arrow)
>>       ##                    #
>>       ##                    #
>>
>>[I think the current symbols are 8x8 pixels monochrome, so there's not
>>much room]

How about something like the top and bottom mathematical symbols (which
look like a thin sans-serif T and its inversion)?  See Unicode charactes
U+22A4 (DOWN TACK) and U+22A5 (UP TACK).

-- 
Kevin Rodgers

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Miles Bader]

On Fri, Jan 16, 2004 at 05:33:06PM -0700, Kevin Rodgers wrote:
> >>     ####    (not top)      ########   (top; a `T' might be prettier,
> >>    ######                  ########    but it's easier to confuse with
> >>   ########                 #           the arrow)
> 
> How about something like the top and bottom mathematical symbols (which
> look like a thin sans-serif T and its inversion)?

Read the comment next to the icons in the original post...

-Miles
-- 
P.S.  All information contained in the above letter is false,
      for reasons of military security.

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kim F. Storm]

Kevin Rodgers <ihs_4664@yahoo.com> writes:

> Kim F. Storm wrote:
> 
> > Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> writes:
> >>Something like these (for top; flip vertically for end)?
> >>
> >>       ##                    ########
> >>      ####    (not top)      ########   (top; a `T' might be prettier,
> >>     ######                  ########    but it's easier to confuse with
> >>    ########                 #           the arrow)
> >>       ##                    #
> >>       ##                    #
> >>
> >>[I think the current symbols are 8x8 pixels monochrome, so there's not
> >>much room]
> 
> How about something like the top and bottom mathematical symbols (which
> look like a thin sans-serif T and its inversion)?  See Unicode charactes
> U+22A4 (DOWN TACK) and U+22A5 (UP TACK).

I did consider this, but I think the current approach looks better.

However, I do have various plans to make this more customizable,
including modifying the bitmaps as well as their left/right positions.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Glenn Morris]

Kim F. Storm wrote:

> I just installed patches to CVS emacs to enable this behaviour.  Try
>
>         (setq default-indicate-buffer-boundaries t)

This is a nice feature, but seems to have a bug:

emacs -q --no-site-file
C-h n
M-: (setq indicate-buffer-boundaries t)

At this point, the (bobp) mark [or whatever we call it, :)] appears in
the fringe at the top-left, and the down arrow appears in the fringe
at the bottom-right, and all is well.

I then hold down the down arrow key, until the page scrolls.
Now there are two down arrows in the right fringe. One of them is at
the bottom, where it should be. The other is just less than halfway
down the fringe. There is no up arrow at the top of the fringe.

This is under X, on GNU/Linux.

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kai Grossjohann]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> I just installed patches to CVS emacs to enable this behaviour.  Try
>
>         (setq default-indicate-buffer-boundaries t)

Hm.  It surprised me that the "top" indicator is at the left, whereas
the "up arrow" thing is on the right.

I makes sense to put the beginning indicator on the left and the end
indicator on the right, in a way.  But somehow I expected both to be
on the left.

What do people think?

Kai

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Miles Bader]

On Mon, Jan 19, 2004 at 09:42:25PM +0100, Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> I makes sense to put the beginning indicator on the left and the end
> indicator on the right, in a way.  But somehow I expected both to be
> on the left.
> 
> What do people think?

I agree that it sort of `makes sense', but one thing I do find annoying is
that the _up_ indicator switches between left and right depending on whether
it's `beginning of file' or an up-arrow.  I think it would makes sense to put
the up-arrow also on the right; I find glancing at those indicators when
scrolling, and putting them in the same spot would make my glancing a lot
easier... :-)

Another small issue is that I'd like the arrows to be even more distinct from
the bof/eof indicators than they are now, to make quick recognition easier;
perhaps just adding a another row  of pixels to the vertical line inthe
bof/eof indicators would do th job.

BTW, I'll join the crowd in saying thanks, Kim!  This stuff is very nice.

[The cursor-in-fringe change too -- finally my shell buffers can display ps
output normally!]

Thanks,

-Miles
-- 
I'm beginning to think that life is just one long Yoko Ono album; no rhyme
or reason, just a lot of incoherent shrieks and then it's over.  --Ian Wolff

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Robert J. Chassell]

   ... makes sense to put the beginning indicator on the left and the end
   indicator on the right, in a way.  But somehow I expected both to be
   on the left.

It makes good sense.  I, too, was surprised initially, but after a few
seconds I came to like it.  I also like the symbols.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         Rattlesnake Enterprises
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.teak.cc                             bob@rattlesnake.com

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kim F. Storm]

Kai Grossjohann <kai@emptydomain.de> writes:

> storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
> 
> > I just installed patches to CVS emacs to enable this behaviour.  Try
> >
> >         (setq default-indicate-buffer-boundaries t)
> 
> Hm.  It surprised me that the "top" indicator is at the left, whereas
> the "up arrow" thing is on the right.
> 
> I makes sense to put the beginning indicator on the left and the end
> indicator on the right, in a way.  But somehow I expected both to be
> on the left.

What if there is only one line in the buffer?

> 
> What do people think?

I think, that I need to make this more configurable :-|


-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kim F. Storm]

Glenn Morris <gmorris+emacs@ast.cam.ac.uk> writes:

> Kim F. Storm wrote:
> 
> > I just installed patches to CVS emacs to enable this behaviour.  Try
> >
> >         (setq default-indicate-buffer-boundaries t)
> 
> This is a nice feature, but seems to have a bug:

I see this too -- will investigate.  Thanks for reporting it.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Showing end of buffer

[David Kastrup]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> But I deliberately didn't want to make them too visible -- it's nice
> they are there, but they are a bit on the noisy side in some cases.
> 
> In any case, I have plans to make the bitmaps customizable (in
> lisp), so eventually you will be able to make them any way you
> like...

Could you customize them in viper-mode to look like
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
?

Just kidding.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kim F. Storm]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> On Mon, Jan 19, 2004 at 09:42:25PM +0100, Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> > I makes sense to put the beginning indicator on the left and the end
> > indicator on the right, in a way.  But somehow I expected both to be
> > on the left.
> > 
> > What do people think?
> 
> I agree that it sort of `makes sense', but one thing I do find annoying is
> that the _up_ indicator switches between left and right depending on whether
> it's `beginning of file' or an up-arrow.  I think it would makes sense to put
> the up-arrow also on the right; 

The arrow is already on the right -- do you suggest moving the up
arrow to the left side?

>                                 I find glancing at those indicators when
> scrolling, and putting them in the same spot would make my glancing a lot
> easier... :-)
> 
> Another small issue is that I'd like the arrows to be even more distinct from
> the bof/eof indicators than they are now, to make quick recognition easier;
> perhaps just adding a another row  of pixels to the vertical line inthe
> bof/eof indicators would do th job.

But I deliberately didn't want to make them too visible  --  it's nice they are
there, but they are a bit on the noisy side in some cases.

In any case, I have plans to make the bitmaps customizable (in lisp), so
eventually you will be able to make them any way you like...

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Miles Bader]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
> > I agree that it sort of `makes sense', but one thing I do find
> > annoying is that the _up_ indicator switches between left and right
> > depending on whether it's `beginning of file' or an up-arrow.  I
> > think it would makes sense to put the up-arrow also on the right;
> 
> The arrow is already on the right -- do you suggest moving the up
> arrow to the left side?

Yeah, that's what I meant...

> > Another small issue is that I'd like the arrows to be even more
> > distinct from the bof/eof indicators than they are now, to make
> > quick recognition easier; perhaps just adding a another row of
> > pixels to the vertical line inthe bof/eof indicators would do th
> > job.
> 
> But I deliberately didn't want to make them too visible -- it's nice
> they are there, but they are a bit on the noisy side in some cases.

Hmmm, maybe it's that I use a rather mild grey color for my fringe
icons (I forget what the default is...).  Of course another possibility
is to make the arrows lighter!

> In any case, I have plans to make the bitmaps customizable (in lisp), so
> eventually you will be able to make them any way you like...

Indeed...

-Miles
-- 
`Suppose Korea goes to the World Cup final against Japan and wins,' Moon said.
`All the past could be forgiven.'   [NYT]

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kai Grossjohann]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> Kai Grossjohann <kai@emptydomain.de> writes:
>
>> Hm.  It surprised me that the "top" indicator is at the left, whereas
>> the "up arrow" thing is on the right.
>> 
>> I makes sense to put the beginning indicator on the left and the end
>> indicator on the right, in a way.  But somehow I expected both to be
>> on the left.
>
> What if there is only one line in the buffer?

Well, an icon that looks like the combination of the top and bottom
indicators would be a possibility.

But who am I to quibble about such little things -- the feature is
way cool as it is!

>> What do people think?
>
> I think, that I need to make this more configurable :-|

That is the Emacs Way, of course ;-)

Kai

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kai Grossjohann]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Could you customize them in viper-mode to look like
> ~
> ~
> ~
> ~
> ~
> ~
> ~
> ~
> ?
>
> Just kidding.

See variable indicate-empty-lines.

Kai

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kim F. Storm]

Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> writes:

> > But I deliberately didn't want to make them too visible -- it's nice
> > they are there, but they are a bit on the noisy side in some cases.
> 
> Hmmm, maybe it's that I use a rather mild grey color for my fringe
> icons (I forget what the default is...).  Of course another possibility
> is to make the arrows lighter!

Well, the possibilities with an 8x8 2-color bitmap are fairly limited...

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Richard Stallman]

    I makes sense to put the beginning indicator on the left and the end
    indicator on the right, in a way.  But somehow I expected both to be
    on the left.

That's what I would expect, too.  Lines don't necessarily come near
the right margin, so the indicator in the right margin can be far
away from the text.  They should all be on the left.

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kim F. Storm]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     I makes sense to put the beginning indicator on the left and the end
>     indicator on the right, in a way.  But somehow I expected both to be
>     on the left.
> 
> That's what I would expect, too.  Lines don't necessarily come near
> the right margin, so the indicator in the right margin can be far
> away from the text.  They should all be on the left.

But there may be a continuation glyph there if the last line is a
continuation of the previous line.  

Where should the up and down arrows go?  In the left fringe as well?

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Showing end of buffer

[David Kastrup]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >     I makes sense to put the beginning indicator on the left and the end
> >     indicator on the right, in a way.  But somehow I expected both to be
> >     on the left.
> > 
> > That's what I would expect, too.  Lines don't necessarily come near
> > the right margin, so the indicator in the right margin can be far
> > away from the text.  They should all be on the left.
> 
> But there may be a continuation glyph there if the last line is a
> continuation of the previous line.  
> 
> Where should the up and down arrows go?  In the left fringe as well?

I'd put them in the left with one exception:  if the last line is not
ended with a linefeed, put it in the right.

Even though what to do if the last line has 80 characters without a
linefeed?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Richard Stallman]

    > That's what I would expect, too.  Lines don't necessarily come near
    > the right margin, so the indicator in the right margin can be far
    > away from the text.  They should all be on the left.

    But there may be a continuation glyph there if the last line is a
    continuation of the previous line.  

That is an annoying problem.  But I still think it should go on
the left.  We should not let that obscure case make us handle 

    Where should the up and down arrows go?  In the left fringe as well?

What do the up and down arrows mean?
(I have not seen this code running as of yet.)

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Michael Welsh Duggan]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     > That's what I would expect, too.  Lines don't necessarily come near
>     > the right margin, so the indicator in the right margin can be far
>     > away from the text.  They should all be on the left.
>
>     But there may be a continuation glyph there if the last line is a
>     continuation of the previous line.  
>
> That is an annoying problem.  But I still think it should go on
> the left.  We should not let that obscure case make us handle 
>
>     Where should the up and down arrows go?  In the left fringe as well?
>
> What do the up and down arrows mean?
> (I have not seen this code running as of yet.)

The up and down arrows indicate whether portions of the buffer exist
outside the window in either direction.  Combined with the top and
bottom markers, this makes a good visual alternative (and one that
is, for me, much easier to view at a glance) to the Top/Bot/All
indicators in the status bar.

I strongly suggest trying it out.  Your opinion may differ from mine,
but I find the current representation very visually pleasing.  If the
arrows are to move to the left, I would like the option to move them
back to the right.  More specifically, I would like the arrows on the
opposite side as the scroll-bar.  I would have no problem with them
defaulting to the left in a scroll-barless configuration.

-- 
Michael Welsh Duggan
(md5i@cs.cmu.edu)

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Sam Steingold]

> * Richard Stallman <ezf@tah.bet> [2003-04-20 20:59:43 -0400]:
>
> Dan Jacobson suggested
>
>     Well, it turns out that if you add a special mark for the
>     beginning of the file in the very left margin, then one does not
>     anymore need to rely on "Top" in the modeline to tell us we are on
>     top.
>
> What would people think of displaying a special kind of horizontal
> line reaching across the width of the window, to indicate the
> beginning and end of the buffer?

I know it is too late - the feature has already been implemented,
but how is this better than the scrollbar?
This whole thing - arrows, EOB/BOB angles - just duplicates the exact
same information in the scrollbar (without the benefit of clickability).

Also, I agree with those who say that all these items should be on the
same side of the screen, preferably on the left.

-- 
Sam Steingold (http://www.podval.org/~sds) running w2k
<http://www.camera.org> <http://www.iris.org.il> <http://www.memri.org/>
<http://www.mideasttruth.com/> <http://www.honestreporting.com>
He who laughs last did not get the joke.

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Peter Lee]

>>>> Kim F Storm writes:

    Kim> I just installed patches to CVS emacs to enable this
    Kim> behaviour.  Try (setq default-indicate-buffer-boundaries t)

    Kim> I have updated the w32 and mac code to support this as well,
    Kim> but I cannot test it...

Looks good on w32.  I would also vote for having them all on the left
(or configurable).  These indicators are very nice for those of us
who prefer not to have scrollbars.

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Miles Bader]

On Thu, Jan 22, 2004 at 01:11:30PM -0500, Sam Steingold wrote:
> I know it is too late - the feature has already been implemented,
> but how is this better than the scrollbar?
> This whole thing - arrows, EOB/BOB angles - just duplicates the exact
> same information in the scrollbar (without the benefit of clickability).

(1) It doesn't take up the space the scrollbar does (the fringe is already
    there).

(2) It's visually much lighter weight that a scrollbar.  The reason I
    don't like using a scrollbar is because it demands too much attention;
    these little icons on the other hand seem just about right.

Also perhaps:

(3) It lets you avoid the scrollbar when your particular environment happens
    to have reallly ugly scrollbars (not uncommon!).

-miles
-- 
o The existentialist, not having a pillow, goes everywhere with the book by
  Sullivan, _I am going to spit on your graves_.

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Sam Steingold]

> * Miles Bader <zvyrf@tah.bet> [2004-01-22 16:25:12 -0500]:
>
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2004 at 01:11:30PM -0500, Sam Steingold wrote:
>> I know it is too late - the feature has already been implemented,
>> but how is this better than the scrollbar?
>> This whole thing - arrows, EOB/BOB angles - just duplicates the exact
>> same information in the scrollbar (without the benefit of clickability).
>
> (1) It doesn't take up the space the scrollbar does (the fringe is already
>     there).
>
> (2) It's visually much lighter weight that a scrollbar.  The reason I
>     don't like using a scrollbar is because it demands too much attention;
>     these little icons on the other hand seem just about right.
>
> Also perhaps:
>
> (3) It lets you avoid the scrollbar when your particular environment happens
>     to have reallly ugly scrollbars (not uncommon!).

OK, so I was not mistaken and this just duplicates the scrollbar
functionality.
Good.
In that case, is it possible to make the fringe arrows clickable?
(actually, one can just see the left fringe turning into a scrollbar :-)

-- 
Sam Steingold (http://www.podval.org/~sds) running w2k
<http://www.camera.org> <http://www.iris.org.il> <http://www.memri.org/>
<http://www.mideasttruth.com/> <http://www.honestreporting.com>
Perl: all stupidities of UNIX in one.

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Miles Bader]

On Thu, Jan 22, 2004 at 04:41:16PM -0500, Sam Steingold wrote:
> OK, so I was not mistaken and this just duplicates the scrollbar
> functionality.

Well, _actually_, if you're using GTK widgets, the the fringe-icon info is
slightly more accurate than the scrollbar when you're near the end of the
buffer (apparently due to GTK's broken scroll-bar model): even though the EOB
is on the screen, the scroll-bar makes it look like it's not.  So in that
case, even a scroll-bar fan probably would want to use both.

-Miles
-- 
"Though they may have different meanings, the cries of 'Yeeeee-haw!' and
 'Allahu akbar!' are, in spirit, not actually all that different."

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kim F. Storm]

Sam Steingold <sds@gnu.org> writes:

> OK, so I was not mistaken and this just duplicates the scrollbar
> functionality.
> Good.

It also gives another reason for the fringes :-)

> In that case, is it possible to make the fringe arrows clickable?

Yes it will be eventually.

I'm working on further enhancements to the fringe, and this is one of
the things that will be facilitated by those changes.

> (actually, one can just see the left fringe turning into a scrollbar :-)

That would be fun -- with my enhancements, it should actually be
possible to implement it entirely in lisp.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Gaute B Strokkenes]

On 23 jan 2004, no-spam@cua.dk wrote:

> Sam Steingold <sds@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> OK, so I was not mistaken and this just duplicates the scrollbar
>> functionality.
>> Good.
>
> It also gives another reason for the fringes :-)
>
>> In that case, is it possible to make the fringe arrows clickable?
>
> Yes it will be eventually.
>
> I'm working on further enhancements to the fringe, and this is one
> of the things that will be facilitated by those changes.

Will it be possible to use more than one colour in the fringe icons?
I really like these icons, but at a glance they're too easily
mistaken for the line-wrap arrows.  I have to drag my eyes all the
way over to the right to find out what they are and then go back to
what I was doing.  I think that colouring things sensibly would them
easier to recognise without looking too hard.

-- 
Gaute Strokkenes                        http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~gs234/
When this load is DONE I think I'll wash it AGAIN..

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Richard Stallman]

    The up and down arrows indicate whether portions of the buffer exist
    outside the window in either direction.  Combined with the top and
    bottom markers, this makes a good visual alternative (and one that
    is, for me, much easier to view at a glance) to the Top/Bot/All
    indicators in the status bar.

It seems to me that one or the other is sufficient.  Either the top
and bottom indicators, or the up and down arrows, would be enough.

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kim F. Storm]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     The up and down arrows indicate whether portions of the buffer exist
>     outside the window in either direction.  Combined with the top and
>     bottom markers, this makes a good visual alternative (and one that
>     is, for me, much easier to view at a glance) to the Top/Bot/All
>     indicators in the status bar.
> 
> It seems to me that one or the other is sufficient.  Either the top
> and bottom indicators, or the up and down arrows, would be enough.

I agree -- that's why the arrows are optional.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Showing end of buffer

[Kim F. Storm]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     I makes sense to put the beginning indicator on the left and the end
>     indicator on the right, in a way.  But somehow I expected both to be
>     on the left.
> 
> That's what I would expect, too.  Lines don't necessarily come near
> the right margin, so the indicator in the right margin can be far
> away from the text.  They should all be on the left.

(setq indicate-buffer-boundaries 'left) does that now.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk