Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r112183: Move forward-whitespace, forward-symbol, forward-same-syntax commands to subr.el. Use forward-symbol in supermode.el again.

Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r112183: Move forward-whitespace, forward-symbol, forward-same-syntax commands to subr.el. Use forward-symbol in supermode.el again.

[Leo Liu]

I am curious.

Why are you moving stuff into subr.el? Isn't it better move stuff out of
it?

Leo

Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r112183: Move forward-whitespace, forward-symbol, forward-same-syntax commands to subr.el. Use forward-symbol in supermode.el again.

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 30.03.2013 06:04, schrieb Leo Liu:
> I am curious.
>
> Why are you moving stuff into subr.el? Isn't it better move stuff out of
> it?
>
> Leo
>
>

Hi Leo,

if you permit me to chime it:

thingatpt.el does a special thing in a special way. The moved commands are not related so far, didn't belong there.

Andreas

Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r112183: Move forward-whitespace, forward-symbol, forward-same-syntax commands to subr.el. Use forward-symbol in supermode.el again.

[Leo Liu]

On 2013-03-30 15:07 +0800, Andreas Röhler wrote:
> if you permit me to chime it:

Sure ;)

> thingatpt.el does a special thing in a special way. The moved commands
> are not related so far, didn't belong there.

Whether those commands belong to thingatpt.el is historical. I don't
care much; it has been there for a long time and nobody complains.

But moving them to another wrong place is wrong! Not to mention they are
not generally useful.

Leo

Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r112183: Move forward-whitespace, forward-symbol, forward-same-syntax commands to subr.el. Use forward-symbol in supermode.el again.

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 30.03.2013 08:41, schrieb Leo Liu:
> On 2013-03-30 15:07 +0800, Andreas Röhler wrote:
>> if you permit me to chime it:
>
> Sure ;)
>
>> thingatpt.el does a special thing in a special way. The moved commands
>> are not related so far, didn't belong there.
>
> Whether those commands belong to thingatpt.el is historical. I don't
> care much; it has been there for a long time and nobody complains.


When studying thingatpt.el years ago it was not helpful, was distracting to read that mixed stuff.
But you are right, didn't complain. Just being here now :)


>
> But moving them to another wrong place is wrong! Not to mention they are
> not generally useful.

IMHO they are, as the very case proves.
Probably it's not really subroutines but general purpose commands - in so far there is a point.

Best,

Andreas
>
> Leo
>
>

Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r112183: Move forward-whitespace, forward-symbol, forward-same-syntax commands to subr.el. Use forward-symbol in supermode.el again.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Leo Liu <sdl.web@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 15:41:17 +0800
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> But moving them to another wrong place is wrong! Not to mention they are
> not generally useful.

Why do you think subr.el is a wrong place for these?  And what is the
right place, in your opinion?

Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r112183: Move forward-whitespace, forward-symbol, forward-same-syntax commands to subr.el. Use forward-symbol in supermode.el again.

[Leo Liu]

On 2013-03-30 16:40 +0800, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> Why do you think subr.el is a wrong place for these?  And what is the
> right place, in your opinion?

In general a place that isn't frozen in emacs binary.

Leo

Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r112183: Move forward-whitespace, forward-symbol, forward-same-syntax commands to subr.el. Use forward-symbol in supermode.el again.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From:  Leo Liu <sdl.web@gmail.com>
> Cc: andreas.roehler@online.de,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:54:02 +0800
> 
> On 2013-03-30 16:40 +0800, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Why do you think subr.el is a wrong place for these?  And what is the
> > right place, in your opinion?
> 
> In general a place that isn't frozen in emacs binary.

Not sure why you think so.  subr.el, simple.el, bindings.el, and
probably other files that are preloaded are chock-full of useful
subroutines that are not necessarily used in any given Emacs session.
My impression was that the important question for that is "is this
function a useful subroutine" rather than "will it be necessarily
used".

Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r112183: Move forward-whitespace, forward-symbol, forward-same-syntax commands to subr.el. Use forward-symbol in supermode.el again.

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 13:04:30 +0800 Leo Liu <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote: 

LL> Why are you moving stuff into subr.el? Isn't it better move stuff out of
LL> it?

http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/158448

Stefan advised it for `forward-symbol' and after looking at
`thingatpt.el', I agreed with him.  The other two (`forward-same-syntax'
and `forward-whitespace') were very similar so I followed the same
logic:

1) simple, generally useful, small

2) use only basic Emacs commands and no commands from `thingatpt.el'

3) seem consistent with the rest of `subr.el'

Perhaps we can have `motion.el' or something, but with the current
layout `subr.el' seems the best place.

Ted

Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r112183: Move forward-whitespace, forward-symbol, forward-same-syntax commands to subr.el. Use forward-symbol in supermode.el again.

[Leo Liu]

On 2013-03-30 20:10 +0800, Ted Zlatanov wrote:
> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/158448
>
> Stefan advised it for `forward-symbol' and after looking at
> `thingatpt.el', I agreed with him.  The other two (`forward-same-syntax'
> and `forward-whitespace') were very similar so I followed the same
> logic:
>
> 1) simple, generally useful, small
>
> 2) use only basic Emacs commands and no commands from `thingatpt.el'
>
> 3) seem consistent with the rest of `subr.el'
>
> Perhaps we can have `motion.el' or something, but with the current
> layout `subr.el' seems the best place.

You already have a nice and broad name space to work with i.e. thingatpt
so no need to make another one. thingatpt gives you forward and backward
motions and other goodies.

I think a better and cleaner way to do this is maybe clean up
thingatpt.el. Now codes are scattered everywhere which is messier in my
book.

Leo

Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r112183: Move forward-whitespace, forward-symbol, forward-same-syntax commands to subr.el. Use forward-symbol in supermode.el again.

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 31.03.2013 08:06, schrieb Leo Liu:
> On 2013-03-30 20:10 +0800, Ted Zlatanov wrote:
>> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/158448
>>
>> Stefan advised it for `forward-symbol' and after looking at
>> `thingatpt.el', I agreed with him.  The other two (`forward-same-syntax'
>> and `forward-whitespace') were very similar so I followed the same
>> logic:
>>
>> 1) simple, generally useful, small
>>
>> 2) use only basic Emacs commands and no commands from `thingatpt.el'
>>
>> 3) seem consistent with the rest of `subr.el'
>>
>> Perhaps we can have `motion.el' or something, but with the current
>> layout `subr.el' seems the best place.
>
> You already have a nice and broad name space to work with i.e. thingatpt
> so no need to make another one. thingatpt gives you forward and backward
> motions and other goodies.


Hi Leo,

thingatpt.el delivers a framework, an unified way to determine the start and the end of an object in buffer.

Upon that identifications some simple commands are implemented there, which make use of it: jumps-to-start, -end, move-over etc.

The commands moved now are simple commands also with a related purpose but not constructed upon the thingatpt framework.

Not everything with wheels needs to be exposed during an car-saloon ;)

Best,

Andreas



>
> I think a better and cleaner way to do this is maybe clean up
> thingatpt.el. Now codes are scattered everywhere which is messier in my
> book.
>
> Leo
>
>

Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r112183: Move forward-whitespace, forward-symbol, forward-same-syntax commands to subr.el. Use forward-symbol in supermode.el again.

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 14:06:38 +0800 Leo Liu <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote: 

LL> On 2013-03-30 20:10 +0800, Ted Zlatanov wrote:
>> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/158448
>> 
>> Stefan advised it for `forward-symbol' and after looking at
>> `thingatpt.el', I agreed with him.  The other two (`forward-same-syntax'
>> and `forward-whitespace') were very similar so I followed the same
>> logic:
>> 
>> 1) simple, generally useful, small
>> 
>> 2) use only basic Emacs commands and no commands from `thingatpt.el'
>> 
>> 3) seem consistent with the rest of `subr.el'
>> 
>> Perhaps we can have `motion.el' or something, but with the current
>> layout `subr.el' seems the best place.

LL> You already have a nice and broad name space to work with i.e. thingatpt
LL> so no need to make another one. thingatpt gives you forward and backward
LL> motions and other goodies.

LL> I think a better and cleaner way to do this is maybe clean up
LL> thingatpt.el. Now codes are scattered everywhere which is messier in my
LL> book.

I explained my reasons and you've restated yours.

I'll let the Emacs maintainers decide, since Stefan suggested it.  I'll
gladly do whatever they recommend.

Ted