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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: rms@gnu.org
Cc: schwab@linux-m68k.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Instead of pcase
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2023 13:58:07 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <83zfyq5gds.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E1r9zJl-0003KM-3F@fencepost.gnu.org> (message from Richard Stallman on Sun, 03 Dec 2023 22:08:21 -0500)

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2023 22:08:21 -0500
> 
>   > This is not true.  There is no magic at all in the use of this reader
>   > feature which is totally lost after reading.  It is absolutely
>   > impossible to detect its use afterwards.
> 
> As a factual matter about dotted pairs in pcase patterns, that is
> correct.
> 
> However, we have repeatedly seen that experienced Lispers, who would
> have no trouble understanding those constructs in a backquote meant to
> actually construct a structure of conses, don't know what to make of
> them on encountering them in pcase patterns.
> 
> That's another factual matter about dotted pairs in pcase patterns.
> It is more a psychological matter than a computational matter, but
> that doesn't invalidate the observation.
> 
> It is part of the impact of complexity of pcase.

Some people are saying that everything is clear because the Lisp
reader does this and that.  But when humans read code, they don't
normally run the Lisp reader in their head, they use other techniques
to read and grasp what the code does.  If there's a need to ask what
does the Lisp reader do with some syntax, that is already an obstacle
to understanding the code, even though eventually one can understand
it, whether by thinking what the reader does or by actually running
the reader and/or macro-expansion.



  reply	other threads:[~2023-12-04 11:58 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 342+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-11-16  3:04 Instead of pcase Richard Stallman
2023-11-16  7:37 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-11-16 17:18   ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 17:44     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 18:16       ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-11-17  8:54         ` Complex SPEC for variables/customization like font-lock-keywords/org-capture-templates/etc (was: Instead of pcase) Ihor Radchenko
2023-11-25  4:03           ` Complex SPEC for variables/customization like font-lock-keywords/org-capture-templates/etc Stefan Monnier
2023-11-16 19:19       ` Instead of pcase Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-17  8:02         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 18:21     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-16 18:39       ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 18:47         ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-11-16 18:51           ` T.V Raman
2023-11-18  3:04           ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 12:23             ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 16:02               ` Barry Fishman
2023-11-19 17:59                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 19:31                   ` Eric Abrahamsen
2023-11-25  4:23                     ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-27  3:12                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 21:15                   ` Barry Fishman
2023-11-20  1:15                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-20 15:32                     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23  2:57                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24 17:14                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-27  3:09                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 12:21                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-29  3:42                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-29 12:56                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01  3:17                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28  2:44                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28 12:39                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-30  3:37                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-01  0:18                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01  5:51                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-10  8:34                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-12-10  9:35                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-10  9:53                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-12-10 10:35                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-10 11:05                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-12-01  7:21                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01  8:03                                     ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-02  3:21                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24 18:14                         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-24 18:35                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-27  3:14                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28  2:46                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28  6:35                               ` Nikita Domnitskii
2023-11-30  3:37                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 21:37                                 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-10 15:14                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-10 16:27                               ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-10 20:28                                 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-10 21:13                                   ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-12  3:43                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-12  6:46                                     ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-12-12 15:18                                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-12-14  3:24                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-14 16:52                                         ` Drew Adams
2023-12-16  4:24                                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  5:04                                             ` Drew Adams
2023-12-16 18:30                                               ` Bob Rogers
2023-12-18  4:13                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-12 19:24                                     ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-12-12 21:36                                       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-12-12 22:25                                         ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-13  1:32                                     ` Adam Porter
2023-12-14  3:23                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  4:23                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-18  4:09                                         ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-18 10:08                                           ` cond* João Távora
2023-12-21  4:20                                             ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-21  9:50                                               ` cond* João Távora
2023-12-21 16:01                                                 ` [External] : cond* Drew Adams
2023-12-21 16:20                                                   ` João Távora
2023-12-24  3:56                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-24  3:57                                                 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-21 14:10                                               ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-24  3:57                                                 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-25 14:14                                                   ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-19  3:49                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-19 12:13                                             ` cond* João Távora
2023-12-22  3:14                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-22  7:27                                                 ` cond* Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-25  3:41                                                   ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-25 12:32                                                     ` cond* Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-27  4:54                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-27 14:34                                                         ` cond* Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-29  3:52                                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-01 14:49                                                             ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-03  4:13                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 15:57                                                                 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-05  4:23                                                                   ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 14:33                                                                     ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-06 22:25                                                                       ` [External] : cond* Drew Adams
2024-01-08  3:45                                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:20                                                                           ` Drew Adams
2024-01-09  2:53                                                                           ` map seq and radix-tree-leaf, in pcase Richard Stallman
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-10 13:03                                                                         ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-13  3:50                                                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-13  6:32                                                                             ` cond* Adam Porter
2024-01-16  3:31                                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-13 19:47                                                                             ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-15  3:13                                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:13                                                                         ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-27  3:37                                                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-02-01 16:26                                                                             ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-02-03  3:36                                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-02-03 16:52                                                                                 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-03  4:13                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 15:48                                                                 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-06  4:31                                                                   ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 13:09                                                                     ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:26                                                                         ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-27  3:37                                                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03  4:13                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 15:50                                                                 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-06  4:31                                                                   ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 13:13                                                                     ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:35                                                                         ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-19 15:53                                             ` [External] : cond* Drew Adams
2023-12-21  4:22                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-21  4:22                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-18  4:09                                         ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-18  5:41                                           ` cond* Adam Porter
2023-12-21  4:20                                             ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  4:23                                       ` Instead of pcase Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  4:23                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  6:57                                         ` Adam Porter
2023-12-20  3:28                                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-20 10:52                                             ` Adam Porter
2023-12-23  2:53                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-23  2:53                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-25 14:26                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-27  4:54                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-28 13:05                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-30  3:20                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-01 14:33                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-03  4:13                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-03  4:13                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 16:08                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-05  4:23                                                               ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 13:04                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:42                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-27  3:37                                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-13  4:58                                     ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-11  3:31                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 13:49             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21  2:42               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-21  5:14                 ` Jim Porter
2023-11-21  5:34                 ` Yuri Khan
2023-11-21 11:11                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21 15:38                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23  3:00                     ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24  3:34                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24  4:30                     ` Jim Porter
2023-11-24  7:45                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-25  3:08                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-24 17:01                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-24 17:29                 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-11-28  2:44                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-30 19:14                     ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-11-30 19:26                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-30 20:30                         ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-01  6:24                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 15:47                             ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-01 16:07                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 20:27                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-12-02 13:24                                 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-02 13:51                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-04  3:11                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-03  3:28                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-30 20:47                         ` João Távora
2023-12-01  6:31                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01  7:07                             ` Yuri Khan
2023-12-01  8:10                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01  9:04                                 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-04  3:08                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-04 11:58                                     ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2023-12-04 12:35                                       ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-04 13:20                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-04 17:46                                           ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-07  2:48                                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-07 17:42                                               ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-09  4:02                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-04 18:17                                           ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-04 12:37                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-08  3:54                                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-01 10:13                                 ` João Távora
2023-12-01  8:35                             ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-01 10:02                             ` João Távora
2023-12-01 11:52                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 12:48                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01 14:44                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 18:28                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01 18:40                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 18:45                                       ` João Távora
2024-01-09  5:36                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2023-12-01 13:28                                 ` João Távora
2023-12-01 16:25                                 ` Andreas Schwab
2024-01-09  5:33                               ` Stefan Kangas
2024-01-09 10:43                                 ` João Távora
2023-12-01 16:04                             ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-01 16:33                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-02  3:20                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02  8:41                         ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-02  9:02                           ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-02 10:14                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-02 17:02                               ` Barry Fishman
2023-12-02 20:25                                 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-03  4:30                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-05  2:58                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-05  3:36                             ` chad
2023-12-08  3:53                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 14:33                         ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-04  3:11                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 18:01                         ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-04  3:11                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-04 12:27                             ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-03  3:27                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-25  4:15                 ` Stefan Monnier
2023-11-27  3:12                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-30 18:06                     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 18:49         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-16 23:41     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17  7:34       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-26  3:17   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 15:06 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 17:31   ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 18:26     ` Jim Porter
2023-11-16 18:40       ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 19:13         ` Jim Porter
2023-11-20  3:06   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-20 14:35     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23  2:57       ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 15:20 ` Spencer Baugh
2023-11-16 20:16   ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-16 21:37     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-11-25  4:34     ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-25  8:53       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-18  3:03   ` combining cond and let, to replace pcase Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 11:20     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 11:43       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 12:16         ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 13:21           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 13:32             ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 14:41               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 15:27                 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 15:29                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 16:03           ` Joost Kremers
2023-11-19 16:59             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 18:29               ` Joost Kremers
2023-11-19 18:35                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 12:50         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 13:08           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 13:52             ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 14:45               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-20 15:35                 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-20 16:37                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-21  8:33                     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-21  8:39                       ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 13:59             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 14:49               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 14:53                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 12:04       ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 18:10       ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-25  4:45         ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-28 15:31           ` João Távora
2023-11-28 15:55             ` Stefan Monnier
2023-11-19 21:36       ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-11-21 16:14         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 16:08     ` Axel Forsman
2023-11-21 15:53     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23  2:58     ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-23  7:02       ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-26  3:14         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 17:07           ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-27 17:59             ` Yuri Khan
2023-11-28 14:25               ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-23  8:58       ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-26  3:14         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24  3:08       ` Daniel Semyonov
2023-11-24  3:26         ` Daniel Semyonov
2023-11-25  2:59         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-25  5:11       ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-27  3:11         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 18:13           ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-27 18:49             ` Yuri Khan
2023-11-27 23:12               ` Stefan Monnier
2023-11-29  3:41               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-29  3:40             ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27  3:11         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 18:11 ` Instead of pcase Emanuel Berg
2023-11-16 19:26   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-16 22:16     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17  7:30       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-17  8:09         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17 12:16           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-18  6:26             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-18  7:21               ` Po Lu
2023-11-18  7:41                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-16 18:22 ` Jim Porter
2023-11-16 22:55   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17  5:36   ` Po Lu
2023-11-19 11:48     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 12:50       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 14:05         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 14:41           ` Po Lu
2023-11-19 14:44             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 14:52           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 14:58             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 15:14               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 18:04                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 18:30                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 18:51                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 19:49                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-21  2:43               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 14:14         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 15:09           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-20 14:52             ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 14:29       ` Po Lu
2023-11-20 15:20         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-20 15:29         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-20 23:43           ` Po Lu
2023-11-21  1:09             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21  1:49               ` Po Lu
2023-11-21  1:59                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21  4:04                   ` Po Lu
2023-11-21 11:27                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21 11:49                       ` Po Lu
2023-11-20 23:45           ` Jose E. Marchesi
2023-11-20 23:54             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-21  2:01             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-22  2:59               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-22  3:29                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-22 11:58                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-24  3:38                   ` Richard Stallman

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