From: Katherine Cox-Buday <cox.katherine.e@gmail.com>
To: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com>,
guix-devel <guix-devel@gnu.org>
Cc: Vagrant Cascadian <vagrant@debian.org>
Subject: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2023 20:58:55 -0600 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <baab13c6-8234-1ba4-b16d-f59ef5e2554a@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <86il8op43w.fsf@gmail.com>
On 9/5/23 5:55 PM, Simon Tournier wrote:
> Hi Katherine,
>
> I am fully aligned with the Survey proposal; at some past Guix Days I
> remember discussing a kind of survey á la Haskell or Emacs surveys.
> Well, such appears to me very informative to better know how to improve,
> from user to contributor.
OK, great! What are next steps, and how can I help?
> On Tue, 05 Sep 2023 at 12:00, Katherine Cox-Buday <cox.katherine.e@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 1. A list of the issues
>> 2. How we'll measure that they're issues
>> 3. How we'll measure improvement against the issues
>> 4. How we'll address the issues
>>
>> So often in my long career I've worked with organizations/people that
>> really want to skip to (5): implement something.
>>
>> Implement a vertically-integrated solution to gather feedback against
>> reality: yes. Jump straight to the "final solution" with all the details
>> managed: no.
>
> Since I am French and it is easier for me to comment about my
> disagreements than the converse. ;-)
You keep mentioning you're French as some kind of disparaging thing, but
all the French people I've met (especially our Guix friends) have been
kind and thoughtful :)
> In my career, I have seen the converse: spending plenty of time cooking
> all the details of the plan and then being bitten by implementation
> “details” that were impossible to predict beforehand.
>
> Instead, I often see the incremental improvements more productive.
> Especially when people are volunteers for their contributions and so
> their motivation is variable and non-fungible.
I think you've just said the same thing I've said: implement a
vertically integrated proof of concept and start iterating.
But you need to know the requirements first because even the basic shape
of your implementation can swing wildly depending on these. E.g. a
service with three nines of availability can be a fundamentally
different service than one with four.
> I think we have
>
> #1. a list of issues; some points discussed in this thread
> could be reported as bugs.
> #4. an hope for addressing some of them using a plan (scripts, fix guix
> edit, etc.)
>
> As we discussed earlier, the ’measures’ are the difficult part and there
> is too many bias that it’s almost impossible to measure. At best, the
> number of contributors (#2) and some stats from some survey (#3) would
> provide some indicators.
I think almost all surveys ask subjective questions. The bias is OK,
because in aggregate, it at least points towards a consensus or
indicates that there are undiscovered problems.
For example: "The Guix logo should be blue: agree/disagree?". This is
completely subjective, but if 95% of responses disagree, and they
disagree year-over-year, that's an indication that there's some reason
it shouldn't be blue.
*Maybe* we even find out that a lot of Guix users are color-blind and
blue just looks gray.
The point isn't that you practice direct democracy and subject yourself
to the shifting opinions of the responders. The point is to gather data
and try and draw conclusions based on what you see.
We should probably go ahead and do what we think is best to improve the
situation, but we should probably also have a standing question about
this that we ask in our survey to see if the situation is getting better
or worse.
> Maybe I misread, I think we have a consensus about the issues and
> about the concrete actionable next steps, no?
>
> a. Prepare a survey
> b. Report bugs about “guix style” and “guix edit” (and I am probably
> missing other reported in the thread :-))
> c. Look to Build Coordinator and QA [A,B] (ask Chris?) and try to
> extract what this CI does.
>
> Well, from what my opinion is worth here.
>
> A: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/build-coordinator.git
> B: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/qa-frontpage.git/
That all sounds good to me.
Before I opened this can of worms, I was planning on trying to work on
the Go branch/packages
(https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2023-08/msg00058.html).
But since I'm the cause of all this, and it will indirectly help me with
Go things (which is why I brought it up), how can I help?
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-09-06 2:59 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 267+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-08-23 16:25 How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-23 17:27 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-08-23 18:03 ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-25 8:07 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-25 9:16 ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-25 9:57 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-25 23:56 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-25 14:44 ` Wilko Meyer
2023-08-26 14:37 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-27 12:07 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-27 13:57 ` Saku Laesvuori
2023-08-27 17:08 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-29 10:04 ` MSavoritias
2023-08-29 11:05 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-05 15:33 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 19:16 ` Csepp
2023-09-05 20:43 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-29 3:00 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 16:01 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 17:01 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 18:18 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-05 18:40 ` (
2023-09-05 20:43 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-05 22:04 ` wolf
2023-09-06 18:42 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 15:39 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 22:56 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-06 9:41 ` Josselin Poiret
2023-09-08 14:20 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-10 9:35 ` Efraim Flashner
2023-09-11 10:34 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-06 20:10 ` Wojtek Kosior via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-17 8:01 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-07 20:38 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-07 20:52 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-17 8:07 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-05 23:41 ` brian via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-06 16:53 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-06 17:52 ` Vagrant Cascadian
2023-09-06 18:27 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-06 18:49 ` Christopher Baines
2023-09-08 9:16 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-08 16:56 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-06 19:11 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-05 22:57 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-06 2:34 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-06 9:07 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-07 20:39 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-09 12:32 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-11 12:19 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-12 15:35 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 15:35 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-09 17:14 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-11 12:37 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-11 21:25 ` Csepp
2023-09-12 9:09 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-12 11:09 ` Csepp
2023-09-12 14:51 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-17 12:39 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-08 10:25 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-06 19:01 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 9:53 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-08 11:28 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 12:40 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-12 16:05 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 16:05 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-13 7:57 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 9:28 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-12 16:08 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 16:08 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-08 12:09 ` Efraim Flashner
2023-09-08 16:54 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-06 2:49 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-06 22:16 ` kiasoc5
2023-09-08 15:27 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 19:22 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 20:37 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-12 16:18 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 16:18 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-09 10:01 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-09 19:45 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-08-28 8:15 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-28 17:00 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-30 7:37 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29 9:29 ` MSavoritias
2023-08-29 19:29 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 14:44 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 18:50 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 20:24 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 23:26 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-09 19:40 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-09 22:20 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-11 10:36 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-11 17:53 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-11 18:50 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-12 14:42 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-12 16:57 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 15:31 ` to PR or not to PR, is /that/ the question? Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-13 22:02 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-14 6:53 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-14 7:30 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-17 16:20 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? MSavoritias
2023-09-17 16:35 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-18 9:37 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-18 16:35 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-18 17:13 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-18 17:39 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-18 19:20 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-18 20:28 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-18 19:47 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-17 15:50 ` MSavoritias
2023-08-25 23:48 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-27 8:35 ` Josselin Poiret
2023-08-25 23:31 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-23 20:48 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-25 9:03 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-27 3:27 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-02 22:11 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-03 1:05 ` Vagrant Cascadian
2023-09-04 8:56 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-04 15:10 ` Efraim Flashner
2023-09-05 2:18 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 7:21 ` Replacing Mumi+Debbugs? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-05 13:12 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Csepp
2023-09-05 20:30 ` Wilko Meyer
2023-08-23 22:04 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-08-23 22:37 ` Jack Hill
2023-08-24 0:18 ` Csepp
2023-08-25 0:10 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-08-26 0:16 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-28 21:46 ` paul
2023-08-26 0:06 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-27 3:00 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-27 8:37 ` Josselin Poiret
2023-08-28 9:44 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-27 2:50 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-29 22:40 ` Csepp
2023-08-30 2:46 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-28 8:52 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-24 3:33 ` Ahmed Khanzada via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-08-26 0:25 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-24 6:33 ` (
2023-08-26 0:39 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-27 3:22 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-27 7:39 ` 宋文武
2023-08-28 11:42 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-01 19:12 ` Imran Iqbal
2023-09-03 17:45 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-03 21:05 ` indieterminacy
2023-09-03 21:16 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-13 12:20 ` Fannys
2023-09-13 15:42 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-13 23:13 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-17 11:29 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-18 10:09 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-19 10:33 ` contribute with content in our official help pages? Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-19 16:35 ` The elephant in the room and the Guix Bang Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-19 20:41 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-20 20:52 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-20 8:21 ` Csepp
2023-09-20 8:45 ` The e(macs)lephant " Nguyễn Gia Phong via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-20 9:28 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-20 14:03 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-20 14:09 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-14 8:24 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-18 16:40 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-14 17:49 ` Sarthak Shah
2023-09-15 10:18 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 12:25 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-22 15:14 ` Imran Iqbal
2023-09-22 15:30 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-22 16:17 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-22 16:35 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-22 17:28 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-25 15:13 ` Enabling contribution through documentation Samuel Christie via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-10-16 20:18 ` Matt
2023-11-06 22:43 ` Samuel Christie via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-11-11 1:14 ` Matt
2023-08-28 6:12 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? (
2023-08-28 9:14 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-29 9:53 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-05 7:54 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 12:59 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-14 8:18 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-08-26 17:40 ` kiasoc5
2023-08-24 9:06 ` Wilko Meyer
2023-08-25 9:31 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-26 17:42 ` kiasoc5
2023-08-26 18:53 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-26 21:35 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-27 8:26 ` Non-committer comments on patches Andreas Enge
2023-08-28 6:17 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? (
2023-08-28 10:01 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-28 9:26 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-24 18:53 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-26 1:02 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-28 10:17 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-30 16:11 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-30 16:53 ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-30 19:02 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-02 11:16 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-02 13:48 ` paul
2023-09-02 19:08 ` Csepp
2023-09-02 20:23 ` wolf
2023-09-02 23:08 ` Csepp
2023-09-04 10:23 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-09-04 12:44 ` brian via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-04 14:35 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-09-04 18:13 ` Andreas Enge
2023-09-05 9:58 ` pinoaffe
2023-09-05 14:22 ` brian via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-05 15:25 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 13:19 ` Csepp
2023-09-05 15:30 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 19:08 ` Csepp
2023-09-06 12:14 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-09-06 12:56 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-06 16:03 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-04 19:16 ` phil
2023-09-04 18:22 ` Andreas Enge
2023-09-02 16:08 ` Csepp
2023-09-02 18:27 ` Mumi search broken? (was: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-03 7:36 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-03 8:53 ` paul
2023-09-03 10:31 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-03 14:53 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-04 9:40 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-03 18:18 ` Csepp
2023-09-03 20:32 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-05 8:43 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 18:04 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 19:15 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-13 13:24 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-05 1:32 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 17:19 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 14:01 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 18:00 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 20:39 ` Guix User Survey? Wilko Meyer
2023-09-05 23:55 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Simon Tournier
2023-09-06 2:58 ` Katherine Cox-Buday [this message]
2023-09-06 9:34 ` Next action, survey? Simon Tournier
2023-09-07 20:39 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-08 6:31 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? (
2023-09-05 22:11 ` wolf
2023-09-05 23:02 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 13:59 ` MSavoritias
2023-08-28 21:41 ` paul
2023-08-29 8:32 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29 9:31 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29 11:28 ` git interfaces (was Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29 23:11 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Csepp
2023-08-30 8:39 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-30 9:33 ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-30 0:22 ` Danny Milosavljevic
2023-08-30 9:41 ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-30 12:33 ` commit message helpers (was Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-04 13:36 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-05 3:25 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 7:48 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-04 11:09 ` David Larsson
2023-09-04 22:06 ` Mumi CLI client (was: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Arun Isaac
2023-09-05 8:58 ` Debbugs CLI client (was Re: Mumi CLI client (was: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?))) Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 10:37 ` Mumi CLI client (was: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-08 16:49 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-12 14:55 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-13 8:52 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-13 10:26 ` Commenting bug reports via mumi web interface " Giovanni Biscuolo
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