From: Attila Lendvai <attila@lendvai.name>
To: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@gmail.com>
Cc: Andreas Enge <andreas@enge.fr>,
"Felix \"Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU
System\tdistribution.\"" <guix-devel@gnu.org>,
Katherine Cox-Buday <cox.katherine.e@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2023 12:07:42 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <SOzCtzSktmVA0379vld-YhLRylqZFr2lhwoSY_O9_Kw-420b8BSVpasSdsjPnh0gQusJNPEKQooc0p0ZzXtV8SD7Vp0xkwWS9RfZP8G-nDQ=@lendvai.name> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <be8094d5efce6131dbe7b038cefbd50eec721a2d.camel@gmail.com>
> > until needed (rarely). the email based model is just a flat list of
> > messages that includes all the past mistakes, and the by now
> > irrelevant versions.
>
> What the? If anything, emails are like a tree and discussions in most
> forges are a single long list that's rarely well organized. Virtually
not sure how most people consume their emails nowadays, but for me it's one flat list per thread, in a browser (i.e. it's not a tree).
and i haven't used any forges where there's not at least a flat timeline per PR.
i used to use emacs for emails for a while, but i stopped. the learning curve was too steep, and documentation was sparse, for little perceived benefit. at one point i noticed that it was saving unencrypted drafts of encrypted threads into my online mail account, and i decided to abandon it.
now i rely on webmail with Edit in Emacs browser extension. it's good enough for everything i do, except maybe for contributing to Guix.
> every mail client supports threads, whereas a certain one of the more
> popular forges still refuses to do so. Hiding obsolete versions of a
> pull request is in practice implemented either by pushing more commits
> on top of the existing one, often with dubious commit messages or by
> force-pushing a branch, neither of which is an acceptable solution for
> Guix.
are you by any chance mixing the standards that we set out for the Guix repo, with the means of communication while a patchset is being forged into mergeable quality?
and even if you are not, we could simply add an entry to the requirement list that the commit history of a PR must be retained even when a PR is force-pushed. it's not that emails are inherently superior.
> Other implicit assumptions include that people will be happy to switch
> for the particular fork you've chosen (they won't) and will not demand
> $new_hot_thing within the next five years (they likely will, just look
my implicit assumption is that a project is ready to switch communication technologies every few years, *if* it's justified. and all i'm trying to achieve here is to move the discussion away from email-is-superior-period, to look at what requiremenets we have and what tools satisfy them, if any.
> at the ChatGPT-related stuff that has been submitted). There sadly is
> no pleasing everyone here and unless these tools are incredibly simple
> to maintain, the utilitarian approach of least misery leads you to
> plain email.
but is a least-misery model appropriate here? how do you even account for the contributions that could have happened in a different environment, but did not happen?
similarly, e.g. demanding a dated ChangeLog format for commit messages has a filtering effect on who will contribute, and then who will stick around. most engineers have a hard time jumping through hoops that they find pointless (git automatically encodes that information), and i'd suggest considering what the effect are of such rules on Guix as an emergent order.
what makes it even more tricky is that it's a self-perpetuating meme, because the more such conservative policies are enforced, the fewer people will stick around who would advocate for change.
yes, the balance between change and conservatism is tricky, but i think we have moved on from CVS long enough ago to e.g. abandon the ChangeLog format... (or alternatively, i'm blind to the use-cases that it is crucial for).
--
• attila lendvai
• PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39
--
“I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.”
— Thomas Jefferson (1743–1826)
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-08-27 12:08 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 267+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-08-23 16:25 How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-23 17:27 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-08-23 18:03 ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-25 8:07 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-25 9:16 ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-25 9:57 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-25 23:56 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-25 14:44 ` Wilko Meyer
2023-08-26 14:37 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-27 12:07 ` Attila Lendvai [this message]
2023-08-27 13:57 ` Saku Laesvuori
2023-08-27 17:08 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-29 10:04 ` MSavoritias
2023-08-29 11:05 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-05 15:33 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 19:16 ` Csepp
2023-09-05 20:43 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-29 3:00 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 16:01 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 17:01 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 18:18 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-05 18:40 ` (
2023-09-05 20:43 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-05 22:04 ` wolf
2023-09-06 18:42 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 15:39 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 22:56 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-06 9:41 ` Josselin Poiret
2023-09-08 14:20 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-10 9:35 ` Efraim Flashner
2023-09-11 10:34 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-06 20:10 ` Wojtek Kosior via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-17 8:01 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-07 20:38 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-07 20:52 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-17 8:07 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-05 23:41 ` brian via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-06 16:53 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-06 17:52 ` Vagrant Cascadian
2023-09-06 18:27 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-06 18:49 ` Christopher Baines
2023-09-08 9:16 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-08 16:56 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-06 19:11 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-05 22:57 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-06 2:34 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-06 9:07 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-07 20:39 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-09 12:32 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-11 12:19 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-12 15:35 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 15:35 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-09 17:14 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-11 12:37 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-11 21:25 ` Csepp
2023-09-12 9:09 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-12 11:09 ` Csepp
2023-09-12 14:51 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-17 12:39 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-08 10:25 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-06 19:01 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 9:53 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-08 11:28 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 12:40 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-12 16:05 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 16:05 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-13 7:57 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 9:28 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-12 16:08 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 16:08 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-08 12:09 ` Efraim Flashner
2023-09-08 16:54 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-06 2:49 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-06 22:16 ` kiasoc5
2023-09-08 15:27 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 19:22 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 20:37 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-12 16:18 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 16:18 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-09 10:01 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-09 19:45 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-08-28 8:15 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-28 17:00 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-30 7:37 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29 9:29 ` MSavoritias
2023-08-29 19:29 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 14:44 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 18:50 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 20:24 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 23:26 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-09 19:40 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-09 22:20 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-11 10:36 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-11 17:53 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-11 18:50 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-12 14:42 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-12 16:57 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 15:31 ` to PR or not to PR, is /that/ the question? Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-13 22:02 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-14 6:53 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-14 7:30 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-17 16:20 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? MSavoritias
2023-09-17 16:35 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-18 9:37 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-18 16:35 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-18 17:13 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-18 17:39 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-18 19:20 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-18 20:28 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-18 19:47 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-17 15:50 ` MSavoritias
2023-08-25 23:48 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-27 8:35 ` Josselin Poiret
2023-08-25 23:31 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-23 20:48 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-25 9:03 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-27 3:27 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-02 22:11 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-03 1:05 ` Vagrant Cascadian
2023-09-04 8:56 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-04 15:10 ` Efraim Flashner
2023-09-05 2:18 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 7:21 ` Replacing Mumi+Debbugs? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-05 13:12 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Csepp
2023-09-05 20:30 ` Wilko Meyer
2023-08-23 22:04 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-08-23 22:37 ` Jack Hill
2023-08-24 0:18 ` Csepp
2023-08-25 0:10 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-08-26 0:16 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-28 21:46 ` paul
2023-08-26 0:06 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-27 3:00 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-27 8:37 ` Josselin Poiret
2023-08-28 9:44 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-27 2:50 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-29 22:40 ` Csepp
2023-08-30 2:46 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-28 8:52 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-24 3:33 ` Ahmed Khanzada via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-08-26 0:25 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-24 6:33 ` (
2023-08-26 0:39 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-27 3:22 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-27 7:39 ` 宋文武
2023-08-28 11:42 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-01 19:12 ` Imran Iqbal
2023-09-03 17:45 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-03 21:05 ` indieterminacy
2023-09-03 21:16 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-13 12:20 ` Fannys
2023-09-13 15:42 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-13 23:13 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-17 11:29 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-18 10:09 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-19 10:33 ` contribute with content in our official help pages? Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-19 16:35 ` The elephant in the room and the Guix Bang Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-19 20:41 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-20 20:52 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-20 8:21 ` Csepp
2023-09-20 8:45 ` The e(macs)lephant " Nguyễn Gia Phong via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-20 9:28 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-20 14:03 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-20 14:09 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-14 8:24 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-18 16:40 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-14 17:49 ` Sarthak Shah
2023-09-15 10:18 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 12:25 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-22 15:14 ` Imran Iqbal
2023-09-22 15:30 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-22 16:17 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-22 16:35 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-22 17:28 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-25 15:13 ` Enabling contribution through documentation Samuel Christie via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-10-16 20:18 ` Matt
2023-11-06 22:43 ` Samuel Christie via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-11-11 1:14 ` Matt
2023-08-28 6:12 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? (
2023-08-28 9:14 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-29 9:53 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-05 7:54 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 12:59 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-14 8:18 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-08-26 17:40 ` kiasoc5
2023-08-24 9:06 ` Wilko Meyer
2023-08-25 9:31 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-26 17:42 ` kiasoc5
2023-08-26 18:53 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-26 21:35 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-27 8:26 ` Non-committer comments on patches Andreas Enge
2023-08-28 6:17 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? (
2023-08-28 10:01 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-28 9:26 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-24 18:53 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-26 1:02 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-28 10:17 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-30 16:11 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-30 16:53 ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-30 19:02 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-02 11:16 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-02 13:48 ` paul
2023-09-02 19:08 ` Csepp
2023-09-02 20:23 ` wolf
2023-09-02 23:08 ` Csepp
2023-09-04 10:23 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-09-04 12:44 ` brian via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-04 14:35 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-09-04 18:13 ` Andreas Enge
2023-09-05 9:58 ` pinoaffe
2023-09-05 14:22 ` brian via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-05 15:25 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 13:19 ` Csepp
2023-09-05 15:30 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 19:08 ` Csepp
2023-09-06 12:14 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-09-06 12:56 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-06 16:03 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-04 19:16 ` phil
2023-09-04 18:22 ` Andreas Enge
2023-09-02 16:08 ` Csepp
2023-09-02 18:27 ` Mumi search broken? (was: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-03 7:36 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-03 8:53 ` paul
2023-09-03 10:31 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-03 14:53 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-04 9:40 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-03 18:18 ` Csepp
2023-09-03 20:32 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-05 8:43 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 18:04 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 19:15 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-13 13:24 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-05 1:32 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 17:19 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 14:01 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 18:00 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 20:39 ` Guix User Survey? Wilko Meyer
2023-09-05 23:55 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Simon Tournier
2023-09-06 2:58 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-06 9:34 ` Next action, survey? Simon Tournier
2023-09-07 20:39 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-08 6:31 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? (
2023-09-05 22:11 ` wolf
2023-09-05 23:02 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 13:59 ` MSavoritias
2023-08-28 21:41 ` paul
2023-08-29 8:32 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29 9:31 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29 11:28 ` git interfaces (was Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29 23:11 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Csepp
2023-08-30 8:39 ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-30 9:33 ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-30 0:22 ` Danny Milosavljevic
2023-08-30 9:41 ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-30 12:33 ` commit message helpers (was Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-04 13:36 ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-05 3:25 ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 7:48 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-04 11:09 ` David Larsson
2023-09-04 22:06 ` Mumi CLI client (was: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Arun Isaac
2023-09-05 8:58 ` Debbugs CLI client (was Re: Mumi CLI client (was: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?))) Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 10:37 ` Mumi CLI client (was: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-08 16:49 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-12 14:55 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-13 8:52 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-13 10:26 ` Commenting bug reports via mumi web interface " Giovanni Biscuolo
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