Understanding the "replied" tag

Understanding the "replied" tag

[Xu Wang]

Dear all,

First, I am extremely excited to be a part of this list now. notmuch
has really helped me. Thank you go all individuals working to improve
it and to help others to know how to use it.

I would really like to know if a message has been replied to (e.g.
using a certain message id). It seems that all I need to do is check
for the "replied" tag. But often this tag is not there, even when
there has been a reply (I have confirmed this through the thread
display and checking the message that replied to the message to make
sure it indeed has header "replied-to:<MSG-ID>").

I have looked in mutt, and also I see many situations where there is
no 'r' flag, especially for emails sent from me.

The following returns true:
notmuch config get maildir.synchronize_flags

So at least both are giving same answer, but I'm not sure why not
saying "replied" thread is correct.

What is incorrect for my way of thinking about "replied"? Do I
misunderstand what it is supposed to do or am I not updating the flags
correctly?

Kind regards,

Xu

Re: Understanding the "replied" tag

[Jani Nikula]

On Thu, 11 Jun 2015, Xu Wang <xuwang762@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> First, I am extremely excited to be a part of this list now. notmuch
> has really helped me. Thank you go all individuals working to improve
> it and to help others to know how to use it.
>
> I would really like to know if a message has been replied to (e.g.
> using a certain message id). It seems that all I need to do is check
> for the "replied" tag. But often this tag is not there, even when
> there has been a reply (I have confirmed this through the thread
> display and checking the message that replied to the message to make
> sure it indeed has header "replied-to:<MSG-ID>").
>
> I have looked in mutt, and also I see many situations where there is
> no 'r' flag, especially for emails sent from me.
>
> The following returns true:
> notmuch config get maildir.synchronize_flags
>
> So at least both are giving same answer, but I'm not sure why not
> saying "replied" thread is correct.
>
> What is incorrect for my way of thinking about "replied"? Do I
> misunderstand what it is supposed to do or am I not updating the flags
> correctly?

Notmuch deals with the "replied" tag in two ways.

First, the tag is synchronized with the maildir flag R, both ways. This
is the "R" in the filename after ":2,". See [1] for details.

Second, the notmuch-emacs interface adds the "replied" tag upon sending
the reply. You can customize this tag, but note that only "replied" gets
synchronized to maildir flags.

If you use a MUA that doesn't either add the R flag or call notmuch to
add the "replied" tag, you'll lose this bit of information.

You might also find [2] relevant.

BR,
Jani.


[1] http://cr.yp.to/proto/maildir.html
[2] http://notmuchmail.org/special-tags/

>
> Kind regards,
>
> Xu
> _______________________________________________
> notmuch mailing list
> notmuch@notmuchmail.org
> http://notmuchmail.org/mailman/listinfo/notmuch

Re: Understanding the "replied" tag

[Xu Wang]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Jani Nikula <jani@nikula.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jun 2015, Xu Wang <xuwang762@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> First, I am extremely excited to be a part of this list now. notmuch
>> has really helped me. Thank you go all individuals working to improve
>> it and to help others to know how to use it.
>>
>> I would really like to know if a message has been replied to (e.g.
>> using a certain message id). It seems that all I need to do is check
>> for the "replied" tag. But often this tag is not there, even when
>> there has been a reply (I have confirmed this through the thread
>> display and checking the message that replied to the message to make
>> sure it indeed has header "replied-to:<MSG-ID>").
>>
>> I have looked in mutt, and also I see many situations where there is
>> no 'r' flag, especially for emails sent from me.
>>
>> The following returns true:
>> notmuch config get maildir.synchronize_flags
>>
>> So at least both are giving same answer, but I'm not sure why not
>> saying "replied" thread is correct.
>>
>> What is incorrect for my way of thinking about "replied"? Do I
>> misunderstand what it is supposed to do or am I not updating the flags
>> correctly?
>
> Notmuch deals with the "replied" tag in two ways.
>
> First, the tag is synchronized with the maildir flag R, both ways. This
> is the "R" in the filename after ":2,". See [1] for details.
>
> Second, the notmuch-emacs interface adds the "replied" tag upon sending
> the reply. You can customize this tag, but note that only "replied" gets
> synchronized to maildir flags.
>
> If you use a MUA that doesn't either add the R flag or call notmuch to
> add the "replied" tag, you'll lose this bit of information.
>
> You might also find [2] relevant.
>
> BR,
> Jani.
>
>
> [1] http://cr.yp.to/proto/maildir.html
> [2] http://notmuchmail.org/special-tags/

Thank you so much, Jani. This is very informative to me. I think I
have a good understanding now of what is going on.

My question then is this:

I trust notmuch more than mutt, because notmuch is aware of threads
and all mail boxes. Also note that I often use gmail web interface to
reply emails.

Am I correct in the following: if notmuch wanted to, when I run
"notmuch new", notmuch has the information that it could
(theoretically) update and correct all of the "replied" tags. Is that
correct? If so, my next question is: why doesn't it do that?

I think I'm close to getting notmuch intution on its goals.

Kind regards,

Xu

Re: Understanding the "replied" tag

[Suvayu Ali]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 01:25:44PM -0400, Xu Wang wrote:
> 
> I would really like to know if a message has been replied to (e.g.
> using a certain message id). It seems that all I need to do is check
> for the "replied" tag. But often this tag is not there, even when
> there has been a reply (I have confirmed this through the thread
> display and checking the message that replied to the message to make
> sure it indeed has header "replied-to:<MSG-ID>").

You do not give enough details, but I would guess you are probably
reading and replying emails from real maildirs in mutt-kz.  The
synchronising of notmuch tags and maildir flags happen correctly only
when you read and reply from virtual folders.  Of course they are
synchronised again when `notmuch new' is run the next time.  But until
such time, the tags and flags will not be in sync, if you are using real
folders instead of virtual folders.

Hope this helps,

-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.

Re: Understanding the "replied" tag

[Xu Wang]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:39 PM, Xu Wang <xuwang762@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Jani Nikula <jani@nikula.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Jun 2015, Xu Wang <xuwang762@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> First, I am extremely excited to be a part of this list now. notmuch
>>> has really helped me. Thank you go all individuals working to improve
>>> it and to help others to know how to use it.
>>>
>>> I would really like to know if a message has been replied to (e.g.
>>> using a certain message id). It seems that all I need to do is check
>>> for the "replied" tag. But often this tag is not there, even when
>>> there has been a reply (I have confirmed this through the thread
>>> display and checking the message that replied to the message to make
>>> sure it indeed has header "replied-to:<MSG-ID>").
>>>
>>> I have looked in mutt, and also I see many situations where there is
>>> no 'r' flag, especially for emails sent from me.
>>>
>>> The following returns true:
>>> notmuch config get maildir.synchronize_flags
>>>
>>> So at least both are giving same answer, but I'm not sure why not
>>> saying "replied" thread is correct.
>>>
>>> What is incorrect for my way of thinking about "replied"? Do I
>>> misunderstand what it is supposed to do or am I not updating the flags
>>> correctly?
>>
>> Notmuch deals with the "replied" tag in two ways.
>>
>> First, the tag is synchronized with the maildir flag R, both ways. This
>> is the "R" in the filename after ":2,". See [1] for details.
>>
>> Second, the notmuch-emacs interface adds the "replied" tag upon sending
>> the reply. You can customize this tag, but note that only "replied" gets
>> synchronized to maildir flags.
>>
>> If you use a MUA that doesn't either add the R flag or call notmuch to
>> add the "replied" tag, you'll lose this bit of information.
>>
>> You might also find [2] relevant.
>>
>> BR,
>> Jani.
>>
>>
>> [1] http://cr.yp.to/proto/maildir.html
>> [2] http://notmuchmail.org/special-tags/
>
> Thank you so much, Jani. This is very informative to me. I think I
> have a good understanding now of what is going on.
>
> My question then is this:
>
> I trust notmuch more than mutt, because notmuch is aware of threads
> and all mail boxes. Also note that I often use gmail web interface to
> reply emails.
>
> Am I correct in the following: if notmuch wanted to, when I run
> "notmuch new", notmuch has the information that it could
> (theoretically) update and correct all of the "replied" tags. Is that
> correct? If so, my next question is: why doesn't it do that?
>
> I think I'm close to getting notmuch intution on its goals.
>
> Kind regards,

The following message is in response to Suvayu (I am now finally
subscribed to the list so I will have no future problem):

Thank you. The problem in the end is that I would like 'notmuch new'
to not only schronize the 'reply' tag but to master handle the reply
tag because notmuch knows which messages have been replied to (because
it is aware of threads).

Kind regards,

Xu

Re: Understanding the "replied" tag

[Suvayu Ali]

Hi,

On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 02:44:46PM -0400, Xu Wang wrote:
> 
> Thank you. The problem in the end is that I would like 'notmuch new'
> to not only schronize the 'reply' tag but to master handle the reply
> tag because notmuch knows which messages have been replied to (because
> it is aware of threads).

Sorry, I have no idea what you are saying.  It would help a lot if you
explicitly state what you tried, what you expected, and what you saw.
For example, you still haven't mentioned that you are using mutt-kz as
your MUA.  I know that because we had an earlier discussion on
mutt-users.  It is very hard to suggest something without knowing
precisely what you tried.

Cheers,

-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.

Re: Understanding the "replied" tag

[Austin Clements]

Hi Xu. I may be misunderstanding your email, but it sounds like you want to know if a message has *any* reply message. That's not what the replied tag indicates. The replied tag indicates that *you* have sent a reply to a message. Mechanically, when you hit, say, r to start a reply and then send that message, notmuch tags the message you hit r on as "replied". That's the only time notmuch automatically sets this tag.

On June 11, 2015 10:25:44 AM PDT, Xu Wang <xuwang762@gmail.com> wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>First, I am extremely excited to be a part of this list now. notmuch
>has really helped me. Thank you go all individuals working to improve
>it and to help others to know how to use it.
>
>I would really like to know if a message has been replied to (e.g.
>using a certain message id). It seems that all I need to do is check
>for the "replied" tag. But often this tag is not there, even when
>there has been a reply (I have confirmed this through the thread
>display and checking the message that replied to the message to make
>sure it indeed has header "replied-to:<MSG-ID>").
>
>I have looked in mutt, and also I see many situations where there is
>no 'r' flag, especially for emails sent from me.
>
>The following returns true:
>notmuch config get maildir.synchronize_flags
>
>So at least both are giving same answer, but I'm not sure why not
>saying "replied" thread is correct.
>
>What is incorrect for my way of thinking about "replied"? Do I
>misunderstand what it is supposed to do or am I not updating the flags
>correctly?
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Xu
>_______________________________________________
>notmuch mailing list
>notmuch@notmuchmail.org
>http://notmuchmail.org/mailman/listinfo/notmuch

Re: Understanding the "replied" tag

[Xu Wang]

Dear Suvayu and Austin,

Thank you for your attempts to understand my goals. I apologize for
the lack in the clarity of my previous messages. Thank you kindly for
your persistence and thank you to Suvayu for suggestions on adding
more information.

I am indeed using mutt-kz, along with offlineimap, on Ubuntu 15.04. I
have written the following information the other email thread I
started (perhaps I should have added it as a reply here, but I thought
it might be sufficiently a different topic). I will copy the
information I gave there on my goal here:

My goal is to do something like the following:
notmuch search tag:reply-required and not tag:replied

which was discussed here:
http://notmuchmail.org/pipermail/notmuch/2010/002558.html

However, instead of conditioning on tag:reply-required, I would like
to look at this for a specific message. For example, if I write an
important message, I can do the following:
save the message id, and then in 5 days set a cron script to check
whether my message was responded to. If it was not responded to I will
take some action to notify myself (haven't decided what yet).
It is the "If it was not responded to" part that this email thread is
about. I am now realizing that I cannot use mutt's tag "replied"
because I often send and read email from gmail or other IMap clients
(e.g. phone). Because of this (I believe), the reply tag does not get
set when it should (well not "should" but rather "when I want it to").
For example, I often have

abc
->def
  -> ghi

where the message def does not have the "replied" tag, even though it
was replied to (ghi replied to it). I think the reason is what I
suggested above. Yes, indeed Austin was correct about where my
misunderstanding was. I do indeed want to see if *any* reply was to a
certain message id, but the "replied" tag is apparently for my own
replying.

Because I cannot use the "replied" tag (unless I have misunderstood),
I thought I could just check using the message id with 'notmuch search
repliedto:<messageid>', but Suvayu points out that searching for this
is not supported.

Kind regards,

Xu

On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Austin Clements
<aclements@csail.mit.edu> wrote:
> Hi Xu. I may be misunderstanding your email, but it sounds like you want to know if a message has *any* reply message. That's not what the replied tag indicates. The replied tag indicates that *you* have sent a reply to a message. Mechanically, when you hit, say, r to start a reply and then send that message, notmuch tags the message you hit r on as "replied". That's the only time notmuch automatically sets this tag.
>
> On June 11, 2015 10:25:44 AM PDT, Xu Wang <xuwang762@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Dear all,
>>
>>First, I am extremely excited to be a part of this list now. notmuch
>>has really helped me. Thank you go all individuals working to improve
>>it and to help others to know how to use it.
>>
>>I would really like to know if a message has been replied to (e.g.
>>using a certain message id). It seems that all I need to do is check
>>for the "replied" tag. But often this tag is not there, even when
>>there has been a reply (I have confirmed this through the thread
>>display and checking the message that replied to the message to make
>>sure it indeed has header "replied-to:<MSG-ID>").
>>
>>I have looked in mutt, and also I see many situations where there is
>>no 'r' flag, especially for emails sent from me.
>>
>>The following returns true:
>>notmuch config get maildir.synchronize_flags
>>
>>So at least both are giving same answer, but I'm not sure why not
>>saying "replied" thread is correct.
>>
>>What is incorrect for my way of thinking about "replied"? Do I
>>misunderstand what it is supposed to do or am I not updating the flags
>>correctly?
>>
>>Kind regards,
>>
>>Xu
>>_______________________________________________
>>notmuch mailing list
>>notmuch@notmuchmail.org
>>http://notmuchmail.org/mailman/listinfo/notmuch
>