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From: MSavoritias <email@msavoritias.me>
To: Katherine Cox-Buday <cox.katherine.e@gmail.com>, guix-devel@gnu.org
Cc: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com>,
	Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com>,
	Saku Laesvuori <saku@laesvuori.fi>,
	Attila Lendvai <attila@lendvai.name>,
	Andreas Enge <andreas@enge.fr>, "(" <paren@disroot.org>
Subject: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 11:07:47 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <b53e030a-70c0-395c-2b83-e4a30f72b8ec@fannys.me> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <e8d52173-c27d-1555-2d1a-14837a50bbc1@gmail.com>


On 9/7/23 23:38, Katherine Cox-Buday wrote:
> On 9/5/23 2:43 PM, Liliana Marie Prikler wrote:
>> Am Dienstag, dem 05.09.2023 um 19:40 +0100 schrieb (:
>>> Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> Uhm, we have snippets?
>>>
>>> Well, those are exclusive to Emacs :)  And without regard to /that/
>>> issue, I do think that there's a problem if the commit format is so
>>> complex that it's not trivial for anyone new to the project to write
>>> them out manually.
>> By definition, no amount of typing is non-trivial, safe for the empty
>> amount, which good luck trying to commit your changes by pure mouse
>> movements, I guess?
>>
>> Now, if you excuse my French, I think the problem isn't really as much
>> that people struggle to type out the perfect ChangeLog on the first
>> try, which also makes it odd to request a linter.  Bear in mind that
>> committers will sign off anything that appears convincing enough, even
>> if there are smaller mistakes in the message.  Trust me, I've been
>> there and seen that; and also done it myself.
>>
>> Instead, we have seen in this thread appeals to age, appeals to
>> perceived lack of personal benefit, and now appeals to typing effort,
>> none of which really make that great of an argument against the
>> ChangeLog style, especially when they come in combination with a
>> refusal to make use of already provided tools.  I think we're starting
>> to see the moving of the goal post as the actual game here.
>>
>> Maybe it's time to take a step back and instead of asking “How can we
>> decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?”, we should perhaps
>> ask “For which contributors do we want to/can we decrease the cognitive
>> overhead?”  We have drifted much from the original post that discussed
>> moms with full-time jobs, who struggle to do “difficult” tasks
>> (simplified wording; may change the meaning of the OP a little).  Now,
>> I personally struggle to see how your personal preference for
>> communication media, commit message style, and other things that were
>> discussed in any of the preceding threads actually correlate with being
>> a parent.  However, I do know that with its 150 million users, most
>> people of the world don't have a Github account.  Being one of the 4
>> billion email users out there is a comparably low barrier of entry
>> imho.  So, whose cognitive overhead do you want to reduce (besides the
>> obvious "my own", which everyone always tries)?
>
> Liliana, many of your responses in this thread are not OK. They have 
> been dismissive and have strayed into personal attacks. At times I'm 
> not sure if you're intentionally misinterpreting the conversation to 
> try and make a point.
>
> If you disagree with something, or have a point to make, please do so 
> directly, and without attacking anyone's character or making veiled 
> innuendos about their motives or capabilities.
>
> Speaking for myself, I think if you asked me questions instead of 
> inferring narratives, you'd find that our values and preferences are 
> probably more closely aligned than you realize.
>
> We're all here to try and make Guix better, but we can't do that in a 
> hostile environment.
>
>
Completely agree with this too. I wanted to say that Katherine is not 
alone in feeling that some comments

in the thread have been dismissive or even elitist in a lot of cases. 
and one of the main people posting these

have been Liliana.



  parent reply	other threads:[~2023-09-17  8:08 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 267+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-08-23 16:25 How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-23 17:27 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-08-23 18:03   ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-25  8:07     ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-25  9:16       ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-25  9:57         ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-25 23:56           ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-25 14:44       ` Wilko Meyer
2023-08-26 14:37       ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-27 12:07         ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-27 13:57           ` Saku Laesvuori
2023-08-27 17:08             ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-29 10:04               ` MSavoritias
2023-08-29 11:05                 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-05 15:33                   ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 19:16                     ` Csepp
2023-09-05 20:43                       ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-29  3:00             ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 16:01               ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 17:01                 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 18:18                   ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-05 18:40                     ` (
2023-09-05 20:43                       ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-05 22:04                         ` wolf
2023-09-06 18:42                           ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 15:39                             ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 22:56                               ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-06  9:41                         ` Josselin Poiret
2023-09-08 14:20                           ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-10  9:35                             ` Efraim Flashner
2023-09-11 10:34                               ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-06 20:10                         ` Wojtek Kosior via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-17  8:01                           ` MSavoritias
2023-09-07 20:38                         ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-07 20:52                           ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-17  8:07                           ` MSavoritias [this message]
2023-09-05 23:41                       ` brian via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-06 16:53                         ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-06 17:52                           ` Vagrant Cascadian
2023-09-06 18:27                             ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-06 18:49                               ` Christopher Baines
2023-09-08  9:16                               ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-08 16:56                                 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-06 19:11                             ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-05 22:57                   ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-06  2:34                     ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-06  9:07                       ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-07 20:39                         ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-09 12:32                           ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-11 12:19                             ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-12 15:35                               ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 15:35                                 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-09 17:14                           ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-11 12:37                             ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-11 21:25                               ` Csepp
2023-09-12  9:09                                 ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-12 11:09                                   ` Csepp
2023-09-12 14:51                                     ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-17 12:39                                       ` MSavoritias
2023-09-08 10:25                         ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-06 19:01                       ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08  9:53                       ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-08 11:28                         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 12:40                           ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-12 16:05                             ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 16:05                               ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-13  7:57                               ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13  9:28                                 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-12 16:08                           ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 16:08                             ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-08 12:09                         ` Efraim Flashner
2023-09-08 16:54                           ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-06  2:49                   ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-06 22:16                     ` kiasoc5
2023-09-08 15:27               ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 19:22                 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 20:37                   ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-12 16:18                     ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-12 16:18                       ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-09 10:01                 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-09 19:45                   ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-08-28  8:15         ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-28 17:00           ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-30  7:37             ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29  9:29         ` MSavoritias
2023-08-29 19:29           ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 14:44         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 18:50           ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-08 20:24             ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-08 23:26               ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-09 19:40                 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-09 22:20                   ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-11 10:36                     ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-11 17:53                       ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-11 18:50                         ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-12 14:42                           ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-12 16:57                             ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 15:31                               ` to PR or not to PR, is /that/ the question? Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-13 22:02                                 ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-14  6:53                                   ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-14  7:30                                     ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-17 16:20                     ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? MSavoritias
2023-09-17 16:35                       ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-18  9:37                       ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-18 16:35                         ` MSavoritias
2023-09-18 17:13                           ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-18 17:39                             ` MSavoritias
2023-09-18 19:20                               ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-18 20:28                                 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-18 19:47                               ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-17 15:50             ` MSavoritias
2023-08-25 23:48     ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-27  8:35       ` Josselin Poiret
2023-08-25 23:31   ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-23 20:48 ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-25  9:03   ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-27  3:27     ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-02 22:11       ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-03  1:05         ` Vagrant Cascadian
2023-09-04  8:56           ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-04 15:10             ` Efraim Flashner
2023-09-05  2:18             ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05  7:21               ` Replacing Mumi+Debbugs? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-05 13:12               ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Csepp
2023-09-05 20:30                 ` Wilko Meyer
2023-08-23 22:04 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-08-23 22:37   ` Jack Hill
2023-08-24  0:18 ` Csepp
2023-08-25  0:10   ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-08-26  0:16     ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-28 21:46     ` paul
2023-08-26  0:06   ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-27  3:00     ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-27  8:37       ` Josselin Poiret
2023-08-28  9:44         ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-27  2:50   ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-29 22:40     ` Csepp
2023-08-30  2:46       ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-28  8:52   ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-24  3:33 ` Ahmed Khanzada via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-08-26  0:25   ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-24  6:33 ` (
2023-08-26  0:39   ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-27  3:22     ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-08-27  7:39       ` 宋文武
2023-08-28 11:42         ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-01 19:12           ` Imran Iqbal
2023-09-03 17:45             ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-03 21:05               ` indieterminacy
2023-09-03 21:16                 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-13 12:20                   ` Fannys
2023-09-13 15:42                     ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-13 23:13                       ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-17 11:29                       ` MSavoritias
2023-09-18 10:09                         ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-19 10:33                           ` contribute with content in our official help pages? Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-19 16:35                           ` The elephant in the room and the Guix Bang Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-19 20:41                             ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-20 20:52                               ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-20  8:21                             ` Csepp
2023-09-20  8:45                               ` The e(macs)lephant " Nguyễn Gia Phong via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-20  9:28                                 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-20 14:03                                   ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-20 14:09                                     ` MSavoritias
2023-09-14  8:24                     ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-18 16:40                       ` MSavoritias
2023-09-14 17:49                     ` Sarthak Shah
2023-09-15 10:18                       ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 12:25                   ` MSavoritias
2023-09-22 15:14               ` Imran Iqbal
2023-09-22 15:30                 ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-22 16:17                 ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-22 16:35                 ` MSavoritias
2023-09-22 17:28                   ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-25 15:13                     ` Enabling contribution through documentation Samuel Christie via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-10-16 20:18                       ` Matt
2023-11-06 22:43                         ` Samuel Christie via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-11-11  1:14                           ` Matt
2023-08-28  6:12     ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? (
2023-08-28  9:14     ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-29  9:53       ` MSavoritias
2023-09-05  7:54         ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 12:59           ` MSavoritias
2023-09-14  8:18             ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-08-26 17:40   ` kiasoc5
2023-08-24  9:06 ` Wilko Meyer
2023-08-25  9:31   ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-26 17:42     ` kiasoc5
2023-08-26 18:53       ` Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-08-26 21:35         ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-27  8:26       ` Non-committer comments on patches Andreas Enge
2023-08-28  6:17       ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? (
2023-08-28 10:01       ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-28  9:26     ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-24 18:53 ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-26  1:02   ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-28 10:17     ` Simon Tournier
2023-08-30 16:11       ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-08-30 16:53         ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-30 19:02         ` MSavoritias
2023-09-02 11:16         ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-02 13:48           ` paul
2023-09-02 19:08             ` Csepp
2023-09-02 20:23               ` wolf
2023-09-02 23:08                 ` Csepp
2023-09-04 10:23               ` Attila Lendvai
2023-09-04 12:44                 ` brian via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-04 14:35                   ` Attila Lendvai
2023-09-04 18:13                   ` Andreas Enge
2023-09-05  9:58                     ` pinoaffe
2023-09-05 14:22                       ` brian via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-05 15:25                         ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 13:19                     ` Csepp
2023-09-05 15:30                       ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 19:08                         ` Csepp
2023-09-06 12:14                         ` Attila Lendvai
2023-09-06 12:56                           ` Ekaitz Zarraga
2023-09-06 16:03                           ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-04 19:16                   ` phil
2023-09-04 18:22                 ` Andreas Enge
2023-09-02 16:08           ` Csepp
2023-09-02 18:27             ` Mumi search broken? (was: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Liliana Marie Prikler
2023-09-03  7:36             ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-03  8:53               ` paul
2023-09-03 10:31                 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-03 14:53                   ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.
2023-09-04  9:40                     ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-03 18:18                   ` Csepp
2023-09-03 20:32                     ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-05  8:43                   ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 18:04               ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 19:15           ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-13 13:24           ` MSavoritias
2023-09-05  1:32         ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05 17:19           ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 14:01         ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 18:00           ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-05 20:39             ` Guix User Survey? Wilko Meyer
2023-09-05 23:55             ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Simon Tournier
2023-09-06  2:58               ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-06  9:34                 ` Next action, survey? Simon Tournier
2023-09-07 20:39                   ` Katherine Cox-Buday
2023-09-08  6:31               ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? (
2023-09-05 22:11           ` wolf
2023-09-05 23:02             ` Simon Tournier
2023-09-13 13:59           ` MSavoritias
2023-08-28 21:41 ` paul
2023-08-29  8:32   ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29  9:31   ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29 11:28     ` git interfaces (was Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-08-29 23:11     ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Csepp
2023-08-30  8:39     ` Attila Lendvai
2023-08-30  9:33       ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-30  0:22 ` Danny Milosavljevic
2023-08-30  9:41   ` Andreas Enge
2023-08-30 12:33     ` commit message helpers (was Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-04 13:36   ` How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-05  3:25     ` Maxim Cournoyer
2023-09-05  7:48       ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-04 11:09 ` David Larsson
2023-09-04 22:06 ` Mumi CLI client (was: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Arun Isaac
2023-09-05  8:58   ` Debbugs CLI client (was Re: Mumi CLI client (was: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?))) Simon Tournier
2023-09-05 10:37   ` Mumi CLI client (was: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?) Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-08 16:49     ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-12 14:55       ` Giovanni Biscuolo
2023-09-13  8:52         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2023-09-13 10:26           ` Commenting bug reports via mumi web interface " Giovanni Biscuolo

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