Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

Em Tue, 27 Jan 2015 18:48:23 -0500
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> escreveu:

>   > The logo should say "A GNU System", which is both true and humble
>   > aas well as respectful of other GNU systems.
> 
> It should say "GNU's advanced system distribution".

That's the logo of Guix, the package manager.  Therefore, I think it
should say "GNU's advanced package manager" or nothing at all.

I hope GNU GSD will have a logo of its own where your suggestion may
be written.

Furthermore, what about a Savannah project, a homepage at gnu.org, a
mailing list and an IRC channel of its own?

That way we can dissociate GNU GSD from Guix so much as possible in
order to make it an important project by itself, whose implications
and meaning go beyond Guix and thus is more than a side effect
thereof.


-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software should be free as in freedom;

[GNU DISCLAIMER] I'm a GNU hacker, but my views don't necessarily
match those of the GNU project.  Hereby I express my own opinion,
style and perception, in good faith, aiming the betterment of GNU.

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Nala Ginrut]

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On Wed, 2015-01-28 at 00:49 -0200, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro wrote:
> Em Tue, 27 Jan 2015 18:48:23 -0500
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> escreveu:
> 
> >   > The logo should say "A GNU System", which is both true and humble
> >   > aas well as respectful of other GNU systems.
> > 
> > It should say "GNU's advanced system distribution".
> 
> That's the logo of Guix, the package manager.  Therefore, I think it
> should say "GNU's advanced package manager" or nothing at all.
> 
> I hope GNU GSD will have a logo of its own where your suggestion may
> be written.
> 

Yay! GNU GSD should have its own logo!



-- 
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HFG - NalaGinrut

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Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer]

Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org> writes:

> I hope GNU GSD will have a logo of its own where your suggestion may
> be written.

I suspect that the more "branding" we give to GSD, the more it will
cause people to see it as "yet another Linux distro" and not understand
that it's a distribution of GNU.

This is why I like the name GSD (Guix System Distribution) which is
relatively dry and doesn't stand out as a fancy "distro name", why I
think it's important to only use the name in technical conversation
where it's necessary to distinguish GSD from other manifestations of GNU
(otherwise just say GNU when a lay person asks about your operating
system preference), and why I think we should intentionally not have a
logo.

I wish projects such as gNewSense and Parabola had done the same and
gotten direct links to their installation images on a page such as
<https://www.gnu.org/download/>, where they're simply listed as "models"
or "versions" of GNU, with names like "parabola" and "trisquel" only
serving as code-names or "model" names, perhaps analogous to Astra and
Vectra (from Opel) to make a good old car analogy.

We really need a break from, or almost a fight against, this whole
"distro" culture, which is tied to the "Linux" mindset, and perhaps even
"open source".  Everybody knows open source, "Linux", and what "distros"
are (flavors of Linux, duh!), nobody knows about free software and GNU.
This is my experience in Germany with lay people who happened to hear
about "Linux", people who are "Linux enthusiast" themselves, and even
some programmers and others in the tech industry.  I work at a software
company of around 20 people, and while about all 20 know what "Linux
distros" are, maybe one or two of them have a bit of a clue about GNU,
and another handful think it's a software license, or some obscure side
project alongside "Linux", or something like that.  (I actually
questioned many of them in small talk.)  It's an incredibly nasty
situation.

Taylan

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Svetlana Tkachenko]

Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer wrote:
> I suspect that the more "branding" we give to GSD, the more it will
> cause people to see it as "yet another Linux distro" and not understand
> that it's a distribution of GNU.
>
> [...]
>
> We really need a break from, or almost a fight against, this whole
> "distro" culture, which is tied to the "Linux" mindset, and perhaps even
> "open source".

This problem only comes from "Linux distro" phrase. Running a separate "GuixSD" website does not raise this problem.

However, I see many Linux users perceive a distro by what it ships with by default and judge exclusively based on that. In my view this concept needs to be disposed of in favour of them understanding what and how it packages. For the users to know the package manager well, I would expect it to be reasonable to keep the guix package manager and guixSD on a single website, with a single logo, and a single space for documentation (in 1 or 2 files, does not matter).

Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer wrote:
> I wish projects such as gNewSense and Parabola had done the same and
> gotten direct links to their installation images on a page such as
> <https://www.gnu.org/download/>, where they're simply listed as "models"
> or "versions" of GNU, with names like "parabola" and "trisquel" only
> serving as code-names or "model" names, perhaps analogous to Astra and
> Vectra (from Opel) to make a good old car analogy.

To add direct image download links to https://gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html, ask webmasters@gnu.org . I would expect that these distros would however remain hosted elsewhere and would not automatically become a part of the GNU project itself.

--
Svetlana Tkachenko

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Brandon Invergo]

I recognize that the Guix / GSD naming matter is settled, but some
extra, more general thoughts, prompted by this:

On Wed, 2015-01-28 at 11:50 +0100, Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer wrote:

> We really need a break from, or almost a fight against, this whole
> "distro" culture

More practically, perhaps we should push a more accurate term than
"distribution".  Setting aside what this word has come to mean today,
when I think of "software distribution", I think of simply a collection
of software packages that one can install (e.g. a bunch of independent
software archives distributed on a CD-ROM...in fact, I guess this could
fairly well describe the first distros).  In this sense of the word, the
GNU Source Release Collection (GSRC) is more accurately described as a
software distribution: it consists of a means to easily install a
variety of GNU software packages.  GSD, Parabola, etc offer more than
that, so calling them "distributions" does them a disservice.

What we call software distributions today encompass a lot more than just
the collection of software that they offer.  In particular, this
includes all of the configuration, init scripts, package management
tools, and other glue that tie it all together.  The "GNU System", on
the other hand, is a bit different and more general: it is the result of
the interactions between that software (a system is always more than the
sum of its parts), regardless of the specific configuration.  That's why
Trisquel, Parabola, GSD, et al. can all implement the GNU system, even
though the specific software packages (and versions), their
configuration and the "glue" that ties the software together are very
different: the overall pattern of interaction between the components is
the same, resulting in a recognizable system.

So, I would say that "distro" is not sufficient to describe what these
projects do, while the "system" is something else that they ultimately
implement in common.  This is why I previously suggested referring to
Guix (now GSD) as the "reference implementation of the GNU
system" (ignoring now the argument over "reference", please).  

I would suggest changing our terminology in general from "GNU/Linux
distro" to "GNU implementation" but it's feels a bit clunky to say.
"GNU variant" implies that one can find reference (which was resolutely
rejected).   "GNU version" just doesn't have a good ring to it.  I don't
know...Any other suggestions?  Or am I talking nonsense?

-brandon


-- 
Brandon Invergo
http://brandon.invergo.net

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Ludovic Courtès]

Let me suggest some sort of a Tobin tax: for every message on this
topic, the sender owes Guix a patch.  I’m sure we can reach 1.0 very
quickly, and we get the best of both worlds!

Thank you for your help!

Ludo’.

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >   > The logo should say "A GNU System", which is both true and humble
  > >   > aas well as respectful of other GNU systems.
  > >
  > > It should say "GNU's advanced system distribution".

  > That's the logo of Guix, the package manager.  Therefore, I think it
  > should say "GNU's advanced package manager" or nothing at all.

For the logo of Guix, that is right.

From the previous message I gathered we were talking about the distro,
GuixSD.  Sorry if I was mistaken.

  > I hope GNU GSD will have a logo of its own where your suggestion may
  > be written.

We don't use the term "GSD".

Yes, the Guix System Distribution should have a logo, with a subtitle
saying it is GNU's advanced (or avant-garde) system distribution.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > rs to know the package manager well, I would expect it to be reasonable to keep the guix package manager and guixSD on a single website, with a single logo, and a single space for documentation (in 1 or 2 files, does not matter).

On a single web page, maybe ok, but they should have two different logos
since they are different things.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer]

Brandon Invergo <brandon@invergo.net> writes:

> Any other suggestions?  Or am I talking nonsense?

I think you're making sense.  The word "distribution" not only gets
people into the "distro" (therefore "Linux") mindset, it's also
descriptionally wrong as you say.

Perhaps "a GNU-based operating system" is the most correct phrase.  This
would get shortened to "a GNU operating system", or further to "a GNU
system" analogous to "a Unix system", "a BSD system", etc.

    GNU GSD (Guix System Distribution) is a GNU-based operating system,
    or GNU system for short, centered on the Guix package manager.

    ...

    Parabola is a GNU-based operating system, or GNU system for short,
    utilizing the Pacman package manager and ArchLinux software
    repositories.

    ...

And so on.  (Correct me on the technical accuracy of the latter.)

In conversation, the question wouldn't be "which distro" or "which Linux
distro"; it would be "which GNU system", and in a utopic future, simply
"which system". ;-)

So I would recommend GNU and friends to start advertising operating
systems as GNU systems.


I have to note however that this goes against the current terminology
used on several pages on gnu.org which talk of one GNU operating system
(which strangely doesn't exist), and its many "distros".

There is also the notion of "the GNU system" on some pages, which I
think is fine as a more abstract notion, even if the very similar phrase
"a GNU system" is used when talking about concrete systems, but the
pretense of one "GNU operating system" should probably be dropped.

Taylan

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I recognize that the Guix / GSD naming matter is settled,

There seems to be a misunderstanding here.  The distro
made wit Guix is called the Guix System Distro or GuixSD.

Please do NOT use the term GSD -- it would cause confusion.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

      > GNU GSD (Guix System Distribution) is a GNU-based operating system,

Please recall that we are not using the term "GSD" to refer to the
Guix-based distro.  Please stop posting messages which presuppose
we are using that term.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

Em Thu, 29 Jan 2015 07:30:25 -0500
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> escreveu:

>   > I recognize that the Guix / GSD naming matter is settled,
> 
> There seems to be a misunderstanding here.  The distro
> made wit Guix is called the Guix System Distro or GuixSD.
> 
> Please do NOT use the term GSD -- it would cause confusion.

http://gnu.org/s/guix says:

  As of version 0.8.1, the Guix System Distribution (GNU GSD) can be
  installed on an i686 or x86_64 machine.

So the very Guix web page is contributing to further the confusion.
I'm not sure about its manual though.


-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software should be free as in freedom;

[GNU DISCLAIMER] I'm a GNU hacker, but my views don't necessarily
match those of the GNU project.  Hereby I express my own opinion,
style and perception, in good faith, aiming the betterment of GNU.

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

El jue, 29-01-2015 a las 07:30 -0500, Richard Stallman escribió:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > I recognize that the Guix / GSD naming matter is settled,
> 
> There seems to be a misunderstanding here.  The distro
> made wit Guix is called the Guix System Distro or GuixSD.
> 
> Please do NOT use the term GSD -- it would cause confusion.
> 

Use GuixOS. "System Distribution" is as ambiguous as "Operating System",
but the latter is closer to the level of the average Jane (who is
commonly familiar with the name when referring to Windows, Mac, and
Android).

P.S.: I'll pay my taxes later :)

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

	 > GNU GSD (Guix System Distribution) is a GNU-based operating
	 > system,

   Please recall that we are not using the term "GSD" to refer to the
   Guix-based distro.  Please stop posting messages which presuppose
   we are using that term.

People will most probobly continue to use it, it would be better to
pick a different name that will not cause _any_ confusion.

Re: Guix != GNU GSD ==> True

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > People will most probobly continue to use it, it would be better to
  > pick a different name that will not cause _any_ confusion.

As long as we avoid encouraging the abbreviation GSD, it won't
be a big problem.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.