Let's Package jQuery: A Javascript Packaging Dystopian Novella

Let's Package jQuery: A Javascript Packaging Dystopian Novella

[Christopher Allan Webber]

Hello,

I looked into trying to package jQuery, and it turned out to be quite
the challenge, much larger than I expected:

  http://dustycloud.org/blog/javascript-packaging-dystopia/

In short, this is another instance where per-language packaging has
helped things grow to a fairly insane state.  I'm not sure how we can
ever get jQuery packaged.  This is a shame, because many free software
web applications (including MediaGoblin) depend on it.  To make matters
worse, I'm sure nearly all modern javascript libraries are like this.

I'm not really sure what this means for Guix and libre web application
in the future.  I'd really like Guix to shine there... but this seems
like a tough thing to overcome.

 - Chris

Re: Let's Package jQuery: A Javascript Packaging Dystopian Novella

[Ludovic Courtès]

Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> skribis:

> I looked into trying to package jQuery, and it turned out to be quite
> the challenge, much larger than I expected:
>
>   http://dustycloud.org/blog/javascript-packaging-dystopia/

Insightful post!

> In short, this is another instance where per-language packaging has
> helped things grow to a fairly insane state.  I'm not sure how we can
> ever get jQuery packaged.  This is a shame, because many free software
> web applications (including MediaGoblin) depend on it.  To make matters
> worse, I'm sure nearly all modern javascript libraries are like this.

This is terrible.

As an aside, I’m surprised npm creates nested ‘node_modules’ directories
rather than just a flat directory.  It sounds as if at run-time there
could be several variants of the same module being used, something that
most languages do not support (for instance, in Guile, there can only be
one (foo bar) module loaded in a given process.)

> I'm not really sure what this means for Guix and libre web application
> in the future.  I'd really like Guix to shine there... but this seems
> like a tough thing to overcome.

Well, presumably ‘guix import npm’ would be a first step (I hear Dave is
motivated ;-)).

But then, and that also applies to the other importers, we really need
to think hard about updating already imported packages because nobody
wants to update those 265 dependencies manually.

Then again, I don’t know what the cost/benefit tradeoff is.  We get good
integration, transactional upgrades, etc. if we have these Node and JS
things available as Guix packages, but packaging and maintaining all
that is an endless, huge endeavor...

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: Let's Package jQuery: A Javascript Packaging Dystopian Novella

[David Thompson]

Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:

> Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> skribis:
>
>> I'm not really sure what this means for Guix and libre web application
>> in the future.  I'd really like Guix to shine there... but this seems
>> like a tough thing to overcome.
>
> Well, presumably ‘guix import npm’ would be a first step (I hear Dave is
> motivated ;-)).
>
> But then, and that also applies to the other importers, we really need
> to think hard about updating already imported packages because nobody
> wants to update those 265 dependencies manually.
>
> Then again, I don’t know what the cost/benefit tradeoff is.  We get good
> integration, transactional upgrades, etc. if we have these Node and JS
> things available as Guix packages, but packaging and maintaining all
> that is an endless, huge endeavor...

That's true, but we can't hope to have reproducible web applications if
we just ignore npm.  IMO, we have to try, we have to come up with tools
to ease maintenance, and we have to do more outreach in the hopes that
we may convince *someone* outside of our circle that this work is
worthwhile.  Maybe it's hopeless, but web development is the industry
I've been in for my entire professional career (and it doesn't look like
that will change anytime soon) and I really want things to get better,
so I will continue to paddle against the current.

-- 
David Thompson
Web Developer - Free Software Foundation - http://fsf.org
GPG Key: 0FF1D807
Support the FSF: https://fsf.org/donate

Re: Let's Package jQuery: A Javascript Packaging Dystopian Novella

[Ludovic Courtès]

David Thompson <dthompson2@worcester.edu> skribis:

> That's true, but we can't hope to have reproducible web applications if
> we just ignore npm.  IMO, we have to try, we have to come up with tools
> to ease maintenance, and we have to do more outreach in the hopes that
> we may convince *someone* outside of our circle that this work is
> worthwhile.  Maybe it's hopeless, but web development is the industry
> I've been in for my entire professional career (and it doesn't look like
> that will change anytime soon) and I really want things to get better,
> so I will continue to paddle against the current.

I guess you’re right that we must give it a try.  It’s great to have
people with a web development background on board.

Ludo’.